The future of routers [Archive] - SpeedGuide.net Broadband Community

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Dakota
02-02-02, 11:20 PM
Hmmm...seems our little discussion earlier this week did not cover this. At least I didn't see it posted here anywhere:

Source: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/mc/20020129/tc/at_amp_t_broadband_says_no_to_nat_1.html

AT&T Broadband says no to NAT
by Toni Kistner, Network World Fusion (US)

In the first deal of its kind, AT&T Broadband announced a partnership with Linksys last week to offer home networking gear as part of its US$45-per-month cable service. AT&T Broadband customers choose from among designated Linksys wired and wireless gear offered at its site, then pay AT&T Broadband $4.95 per month to network two computers and an additional $4.95 per month for each additional PC.

What's wrong with this picture? Forget that customers have to pay full price for the Linksys hardware. Why should anyone pay a monthly fee to network when network address translation (NAT) lets you do it for free?

NAT distributes an IP (Internet Protocol) address to each device on the network. Hook up a NAT router or residential gateway to your cable or DSL (digital subscriber line) modem and voila, you're sharing the connection. Another benefit of NAT is that it allows only one IP address to be visible to the outside world. Hiding your LAN behind the router adds a layer of security and also hides your PCs from your service provider.

But what early adopters see as a benefit, AT&T Broadband sees as an inhibitor to the wide-scale adoption of home networks. It's gunning to serve the 22 million or so two-PC households -- consumers it expects will need a lot of handholding. That's why AT&T Broadband is offering the Linksys gear -- a wireless access point, and Ethernet hub or switch -- that doesn't include NAT. Instead, AT&T Broadband is doling out the IP addresses on these home networks via its DHCP (Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol) servers and charging $4.95 per month to do so.

AT&T Broadband's product director Scott Russell argues that consumers need good technical support and removing NAT is the only way to remote troubleshoot individual PCs on the LAN. "We don't support NAT boxes," Russell says. "Sometimes, we ask customers to disable the NAT box. If they do, we often find the problem, and find that problem is the NAT box."

Any strategy that improves customer support and removes barriers to home networking deserves consideration, even at a cost of $5 or $10 more per month. But there's probably more going on here. By taking NAT out of the picture, AT&T Broadband gains device-level access to customers' PCs and maintains a level of control over users' systems that could encroach on their privacy.

"Giving AT&T access to my PC sounds somewhat daunting to me, unless they're going to provide virus scan or firewall protection, and perhaps notify me of virus alerts or advice on how to save hard drive space," says Kurt Sherf, analyst at Parks Associates and author of "E-Home 2001," a report examining consumers' receptiveness to buying Internet services.

Sherf's report finds that many more broadband-connected homes are interested in buying firewall services (61 percent) than home networking services (47 percent). Currently, AT&T Broadband recommends customers download Zone Labs' Zone Alarm and provides a link on its Web site. It does expect to offer value-add services down the road though, as the market matures, Russell says.

Mike Wolf, Cahners In-Stat/MDR analyst and author of "Speed! Understand and Installing Home Networks", sees things another way: "The [cable providers] still believe they can charge per IP address. Part of it stems from concerns over neighborhood bandwidth. They want control, and they want to be compensated."

BaLa
02-03-02, 02:30 AM
that's BS

can they legally do this?

Matt615
02-03-02, 09:33 AM
how can they tell if your using NAT already without physically looking at your setup at home???

YARDofSTUF
02-03-02, 09:59 AM
"AT&T Broadband's product director Scott Russell argues that consumers need good technical support and removing NAT is the only way to remote troubleshoot individual PCs on the LAN. "We don't support NAT boxes," Russell says. "Sometimes, we ask customers to disable the NAT box. If they do, we often find the problem, and find that problem is the NAT box." "

my ass!!!

the problem is the crappy phone techs, i'll be getting a router soon and i'll be using on my attbi cable connection, if they have a problem i'll look into legal action!

AmdAce
02-03-02, 05:00 PM
All ATT is trying to do is cash in on user ignorance.
>"It's gunning to serve the 22 million or so two-PC households -- consumers it expects will need a lot of handholding. "
Just because they are trying to sell this service doesn't mean anyone HAS to buy it. If you are using NAT now you'll still be using it after they roll this out. There is NO WAY that they could stop ANYONE from using NAT. There is no secret code that would shut off NAT on customer's routers.
ATT is fishing for new revenue.

martialcomp
02-03-02, 05:47 PM
that technical support costs an ISP .80 cents to $1.00 per minute. Furthermore, customers call their broadband ISP's on a regular basis expecting help with their routers and 2 nic nightmares. Many of you don't know this but, customers blame the ISP all of the time for things that they themselves caused. They do the following things:

1. They set up their router statically even though the network they are on is dhcp. Then, they lose connectivity, leave the home network connected, and call the cable/DSL provider and blame them for the lack of connectivity even though they themselves couldn't program a toaster much less a router.

2. They lose connectivity on one of the client machines behind the router and they leave the entire system connected and then call and blame the cable/DSL company for lack of connectivity on one of the client computers. They do not even BEGIN to troubleshoot the issue themselves. The issue could be caused by a CAT 5 that has been damaged or has too much resistance or is run under carpet where people walk (which even Microsoft says should not be done). It could be caused by the customer stapling the CAT 5 and the staples crushing the CAT5 itself. It could be caused by a firewall in the client computer, a bad NIC in the client computer, etc.

3. They lose connectivity on a client computer behind a router while running a software firewall program that is not even needed behind a router, then, they call the cable/DSL company and blame them for the lack of connectivity.

4. They buy cheap routers that only have 1 or 2 ports and then they run a router AND a hub to get the extra computer(s) online. Then, they call and blame the cable/DSL provider for lack of connectivity on a client computer behind a router AND a hub.

5. They fail to connect to a gaming server or some other server requiring the ports forwarded, then they call and blame the cable/DSL provider for the lack of connectivity.

6. They run between 3 and 7 computers on a router (thats right 7!) and they call and blame the cable/DSL provider for slow speeds.

7. They run 2 nics in 1 pc, set it up statically on a dhcp network, their IP changes and they call and blame the cable/DSL company.

8. They add a nic to a system that already has 1 nic that is set up correctly with dhcp, the 2 nics conflict and the customer ends up with intermittent connectivity due to the computer system mixing up the 2 nics and trying to connect with the wrong nic. Then, you guessed it, they call the cable/DSL company for help.

This costs broadband ISPs a ton of money every year. The customers really have no idea how to troubleshoot their own connection issues and they leave the entire network connected even though they know that their ISP does not give technical support for NAT. Then, they call their ISP's. The TSR asks them to connect directly to the modem. The most common answer is that "well...it worked for months! Why is it not working now? You guys must have done something. This can't be on my end."

I think that At&t would not even be considering this if customers were to troubleshoot their own home networking issues. But, they don't, they call the ISP even though they know that the ISP does not give technical support for NAT/routers/2 nic nightmares/wireless access points, etc.

Bret
02-03-02, 09:37 PM
Yes, I agree. If someone sets up a private LAN, then has problems with internet connectivity because of a problem on the local side, then by all means these people should either pay for the support of these LANs, or not get any support for these or not be allowed to have them.

BUT on the other hand......

If someone (like myself), who has the knowledge, training and schooling to properly get a LAN up and operating correctly and does not require nor expect any support from their ISP for the internet connectivity on the local side, should NOT be prevented from using a router, NAT, a proxy, or whatever device is seen fit for the desired purpose.

Like I have said before ......

The phone company used to charge extra if you had more than 1 phone on a single line. They can't do this anymore.

The cable TV companies used to charge extra if you had more than 1 TV on the line. They can't do this anymore.

(Both of the above examples have limits, yes, I know this)

I feel that broadband internet access should be treated the same way. Let the ISPs handle the situation on their side of the modem, and let me handle what is on my side. In my opinion, it is none of the ISP's business what I have on my side of my modem or router (if anything) so long as what I have doesn't reasonably violate the TOS between me and my ISP and what I have doesn't mess up the ISPs network.

YeOldeStonecat
02-04-02, 08:17 AM
I can see why AT&T is doing this, I have absolutely no problem with ISP's refusing to support routers, it's up to me as a network engineer to get a network and router up and running on a connection. There are far too many brand routers out there for any ISP to support. And, exactly like Martialcomp says, too many I-D-10-T errors on the user end.

I see where they say they won't support NAT, technical support wise. But I still don't see where they say NAT routers will literally no be able to work with their service anymore..as in, a NAT router will just plain not work period anymore.

And the long thread last week, included Earthlink in the mix. Just this past weekend I saw promotions from Earthlink where they included a NAT router in a delux home install kit. So obviously they still work with it.

Man I simply just love my ISP!

martialcomp
02-04-02, 10:11 AM
you guys that do your own home networking properly. But, very few people actually have the knowledge and/or time to do it correctly.

As far as the cable companies stopping NAT? I also agree that they probably cannot stop it or even know how many computers are behind it. But, they can offer technical support for an additional price which seems to be the way the industry is headed.

YeOldeStonecat
02-04-02, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by martialcomp
But, they can offer technical support for an additional price which seems to be the way the industry is headed.

As far as I'm concerned, that's perfectly acceptable, and I absolutely see no reason why anyone would whine over that. An ISP supporting one type of router, like Earthlink is doing, for an extra price per PC so that their support staff can be trained in that one type of router, and fully support it, that perfectly makes sense.

If you don't want to pay extra for that support, you have a different type of router than they condone/support, and you don't know what you are doing, well, shouldn't have gone down that road in the first place.

When I setup routers/networks, and need to call the users ISP for some reason, I tell up right up front, I just need the minimal information on how your ISP works, IE PPPoE, if so, username/password, or DNS host name, or MAC, or just pure optain IP like PPPoA, that's all I ask for, the router on back is my problem. I don't ask for their help on anything else, and I don't expect it.

To sum it up again, I don't see what the problem is here. With so many users getting lost trying to do their home LANs behind routers, the ISP shoudn't have to support that for free. So (in Earthlinks case)they condone the use of a single type of router (logically to keep training costs done, and familiarity of the support staff), and charge a bit extra for this support, what's wrong with that? Or in AT&T's case, if you want a network on, they support the hub/multi IP approach, and charge for that...if you want the support. If you don't want the support, then you're on your own for network support.

I don't see what's wrong with that.

Indy
02-04-02, 11:51 PM
Ok, here's the long and the short of it...

If I go out on a trouble call and find that the problem is related to the modem, the wiring, the signal, or our network, then there is no charge to the customer. If I find the problem is a customer induced problem (ie new software conflicting with network settings, obvious customer-induced network settings muck ups, home network problems), then they get charged $49 for the truck roll.

With that said, after the switchover, I've probably fixed 20 home networks in the last two weeks by either unplugging the modem & plugging it back in to reset the mac address information, or by going into the router and changing it from a static configuration to a dynamic configuration.

What irritates me the most are the people who have networks set up at home who obviously had someone do it for them complain to me about their connection when it was their settings in the router that caused the connection problem to begin with.

I have no problem fixing people back up, short of running cat5 all over the house...normally the problems they have are relatively easy to fix.

I don't think the whole NAT issue is really going to come to fruition. It's too expensive to utilize the manpower and the resources trying to figure out everyone that is using a NAT...especially once people realize they can clone the mac address of their nic into the router...something that I've been pointing out to people that have routers :)