balanced broadband connection

[AMPLIFRIER]

http://www.nexland.com/nexlandstore/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=NO&Product_Code=200040

ok the reality of potential problems are starting to bubble up in my head.....

my question is......

with the balanced broadband connect.....if i run a web site or game server on the balanced connection........how will clients connect to my machine?

would they just use 1 of the ip's and get half the connection speed?

because i will have 2 different ip's that i will be using to make the connection work.

basically.....does anyone know a good site to go to so i can read up on doing this?

because im about to cream my shorts if this will work as well as i hope!

thanks all

AMP

[Bob Carrick]

It balances broadband connections going out, not coming in. Meaning it only gives you the fastest speed from one of the connections, it does not multiplex and give you the combined speed of both connections.

[Phantom-Vortex]

Bob, your confused Bob....but its ok.;)

http://forums.speedguide.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58782

[Bob Carrick]

If it doubled your speed consider yourself lucky. It's built to Load balance, allowing you do get twice as many donwloads and the best route to each.

[Phantom-Vortex]

Thats correct for the most part ,but on some apps\prog it does use both at one time.

[Syclone_A+]

Hey bob, maybe you ought to do some more research before embarrassing yourself with more comments? Just a thought.

[Bob Carrick]

Why? He said I was correct for the most part. It's apps that are set up to use both connections not the router, thanks anyway.

[Bouncer]

I'd be interested in knowing what page has the tech specs.

I'm hearing load balancing, but not whether it's per packet or per destination.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

[Phantom-Vortex]

Both depending on what prog\apps you use.On unreal (dont ask me why)it uses both dsls.....I know wierd.....its probably the only game that does, im thinking the programming in it looks for any open tcp-ip port, on file sharing it uses per destination on upload but dl can use both (seperate ofcourse per# of dl).


If it were per packet then it would be mostly"bonding" the lines so loadbalancing is per destination about 90% of the time.
Myself and a couple people that actually own isps (smaller ones) are talking about that concept now, bonding dsl lines through special protocals\equipment using the same ip for both lines.
It will probably be a while before its a reality.:(

[YeOldeStonecat]

Originally posted by Phantom-Vortex
Both depending on what prog\apps you use.On unreal (dont ask me why)it uses both dsls.....I know wierd.....its probably the only game that does, im thinking the programming in it looks for any open tcp-ip port, on file sharing it uses per destination on upload but dl can use both (seperate ofcourse per# of dl).
:(

Yeah I've noticed that...between Unreal Tourney, and Quake 3...each different.

Last big LAN we did, build a server with 3X NICs in it....running load balancing between 3X Cisco Catalyst switches spread through the room. You'd see UT and Q3 see the servers in differently when you pulled a search for local LAN servers....

[Phantom-Vortex]

Yep......I hope Ut2 is that way, one day I was playing it and I looked over and whoa.......both my dsl lights were going nuts ???I look at my ping and it was lower than everybody on that server at the time.:D Q3\rtcw only uses 1:(

[Syclone_A+]

hey bob, if the router is a DUAL wan router, isn't that an indication that it will use both connections? I mean if it didn't then why not just get a single wan router for each connection? Whats the use in a router that supports multiple connections if it doesn't actually use them. Bob, your confused, i suggest you either go get two broadband connections and buy a dual wan router and then come back and talk to us, or keep your mouth shut!

[Bob Carrick]

I think your confused, please read all the responces.
Yes it uses both connections, we all know that. But it does not take your request for information and break it up to use both connections at the same time, it checks to see which one is quicker, but what we are realizing is that some applications actually can use both connections for the exact same pieces of information to literally double the downlaod speed for one request.

And if you go to my site, you will realize Nexland is one of my clients, has been for 2 years and I even have banners for the pro800 on my site, so I do know a bit of what I'm talking about, but I can admit I did not know that some programs are actually smart enough to get downloads for one request off both connections similtaniously.

[Bob Carrick]

For clarification, if you are requestion a website, your browser requests multiple pieces of that site at once, it will take each piece of that website and check to see which connection is faster, so you could get one image from the same page from one connection, as well as get the next image from the other connection depending on which one is better. So I don't think I've gotten anything incorrect on this.

[Syclone_A+]

My point is that even if the game doesn't support using both connections at the same time you can manually load balance and get twice the throughput for dual connections on say a game server. There is also software out there that will comibine connections for the purpose of dl. One easy one that i can think of off the top of my head is midpoint and i have seen it work so i can speak of its capabilities. The way it works is it sends a request for half of the file on both broadband connections, then it dl half of the file on each and re-assembles it on your end thus giving you the file it roughly half the time. I agree that there has not been a way to discover yet how to truly bind two connections up and down but i have a theory on that. In midpoint you upload a packet say to the server you wish to dl from. This server replies to each and sends half of the file to one ip and half to the other. Now why can't you design a program that recognizes you have multiple broadband connections and say combined an upload of 512k or two dsl connections. When someone pings you, the software would then split the file in half on your end instead of the recipient and send half of the file up through one connection and the other half up the other connection. Now i see one immediate problem with this but i think the theory is sound and there should be a way of implementing it. What do you guys on here think? And don't reply if you have never fooled with more than one broadband connection please!

[Phantom-Vortex]

What do you guys on here think? And don't reply if you have never fooled with more than one broadband connection please!

Very true ,if you have never messed with or experimented with multiple connections please dont assume things, you might be surprised what you CAN DO with multiple connections.


Just depends on how you go about it, what software is used, how you have things networked etc etc.If you read up on some linux forums they talk about loadbalancing\binding alot and some had some really good ideas, (specially if the isps would cooperate)
but we all know they look for the $$$ so its a no go for now. :(

[Bouncer]

Ping itself probably wouldn't support that as it's way outside the ICMP protocol.

What you are effectively talking about is a form of near end cacheing. The idea is simple enough. The problem is that the far end must know which two addresses to get the two seperate caches from in order for this to work.

You can also run into a problem with acknowledgements at the far end since it'd have to be sending acks from two different sequences to two different sites. It'd also have to be smart enough to know to recombine them into one file instead of two seperate files. Load balancing works because the far site has no idea two connections are occuring. From it's perspective it's just getting a solid stream from one connection.

This is more like multi-parting and could run into some... quirkiness.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

[Phantom-Vortex]

No doubt I know, it does have issues with that, but still tinkering with the "idea" :)

[Syclone_A+]

see but i see some promise in this theory. Say for instance you have midpoint on one end with 2 dsl connections. It takes and uses both to dl a file from a server that of course can provide adequate bandwidth for both dsl's to be utilized. Now say that midpoint had an added feature that could allow you to manually put in separate ip addresses to get there half of the file through. Midpoint already splits the file, it already re-assebles it on the recipients end. This would just allow you to specify which connection the half comes from. So in summary, instead of midpoint going from one connection uploading to 2. It would take 2 connections and upload them to 2 on the other end and all be controlled by the user on the recieveing end. This way if other people don't have this capability then the connections would then just be load balanced like they are now. Any problems now?

[Phantom-Vortex]

I beleive that software\apps\games could and should include a feature such has that, its not impossible.A program could be designed to communicate through more than 1 connection both up and down simply by aggregating multiple connections, almost be like multiplying ports and dividing the throughput on more than one connection, such like a built in (programmed) nat the program works with.

It could in theory improve ping time, such a software with that implemented would probably cost big $$$ imagine a game with that feature would be expensive\ not to mention the server side of the same software would have to be able to communicate with that same function.

There was a protocol used mp or mpp for multiple serial connections only that worked fairly well, if it \or better yet a newer protocol could be used for broadband would solve many problems but would have to be used by both ends, that would more than likely involve MS and isps worldwide.

[Bouncer]

While I bet you'd see an improvement in FTP or other TCP based applications, I don't know that you'd see much if any improvement in Ping times. These are more based on physical distance issues, and you might see about a 5% improvement (if that).

Granted you could argue that ping is adversely affected by router CPU usage, but in this case at no point are you sending more data than the router can handle. It's spec'd at 4Mbps across either WAN link and none of your DSL or cable modem connects are happening that fast.

You're not maxing out your router Queue so utilization shouldn't be affecting ping. Which means you're down to variables you can't control. Other routers and switches, line conditions, routing, etc.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

[Syclone_A+]

Hey Phantom, notice who joined our conversation here about a new idea. it seems bouncer is the only moderator that cares about new ideas and is willing to discuss them. All of the other ones just tell me i use foul language and close threads. Oh and bouncer still researching things in your reply, get back with mine in a day or so...