Can volatile RAM still contain evidence?

[GreenXenon]

Hi:

Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a forensics
website that the evidence is not only on the platters of the HDD but
also on the disk cache chips and the volatile RAM chips in the PC.

Even if the PC is turned-off, the chips still contain sufficient
amount of info that can be recoverd by top-secret devils of the NSA
and Central Security Service. Apparenty they have some devices that
can read EXTREMELY-WEAK electric signals from volatile RAM chips and
recover what was lost then the power was turned-off. Is this true? If
so, how to prevent this while still expressing my socially-
unacceptable opinions on the internet?

Are there any RAM chips that are PURELY-VOLATILE and that will lose
all info when power is lost? If so, I'm thinking of buying a PC which
uses these chips. As soon as I turn off the comp, no info remains at
all.

This is another reason I was discussing about RAM chips in another
thread a few of minutes ago.

Please note that I do not plan to write anything illegal on the net --
no threats, no confessions, etc. However, I would like to express my
opinions in chat rooms w/out facing negative consequences.

My opinions differ from that of the general public and I want to
forcefully-express my vulgar, obscene, and socially-unacceptable
opinions in chat rooms [such as Yahoo-chat, ICQ, IRC, chat-zone, and
spin-chat] without being falsely-accused of crime.

While what I would like to write in chat-rooms is not illegal, public
pressure would force authorities to do something. Public pressure
might also force the enactment of new unjust laws possibly rendering
my speeches illegal in the future.

Sometimes authorities are forced to arrest and imprison innocent law-
abiding citizens because of public outrage. At heart, the authorites
don't want to jail innocent people but they have no choice. Society,
being the evil scum it is, will overpower the police and force them to
illegaly imprison me. Crowds of sadistic human beings will overturn
police cars and start harming the police, if the police don't
illegaly-
arrest me. Sort of like a lynch-mob mentality against the police and
me.

I need protection from this unlawful, public-forced treatment.

Sometimes society and the law are on opposite ends. This is one of
them.

That is why I would like to get a PC that doesn't have any RAM that is
"purely-volatile" by my above definition.

Because I am a complete law-abiding citizen, I have nothing to hide
from the police. However, I have everything to hide from the public
and society.

In lynch-mob situations, police are powerless to do what they know is
right. The cops are helpless must be a slave to the evil society.

I respect the law, but I hate society.

For the HDD platters, even after you thoroughly delete, overwrite and
format a gazillion times, you're still on thin ice. The NSA and
Central Security Service have equipment they can use to recover data
from the magnetic platters on the HDD. The equipment they use is
*extremely* sensitive to *extremely* weak magnetic signals on the
magnetic platters. The only way to truly get rid off the data is to
heat the platters beyond Curie point. The cache chips in the HD might
also need to be burnt.

I am worried similar sensitive devices could be used to read the
extremely-weak electric signals present in the volatile RAM chips and
disc cache chips.

Due to the laws of physics, I suspect that the volatile RAM info might
-- to some extent -- exist even after the system is turned off. Sure
the wattage of those electric signals maybe *extremely*-low after shut
down, but that does not mean the signals are not there anymore -- they
are just way too weak to be detected and analyzed by ordinary means.
At the quantum level, the differences in wattage levels which
constitute what was the original volatile RAM info will continue to be
there in the chip.

I'm hoping this is just my paranoia and not true.

Also, the disc cache chips are another grave concern to me, they also
store RAM -- just not nearly as much as the platters of the HDD.

I wonder if there are any PCs for sale anywhere that are free of any
NVRAM devices and still work. The disdvantage of this is that nothing
can be saved. The advantage is, malware can't be planted in it. Such a
PC could connect to the internet and store text on websites -- for
example, I could 'save' something by emailing it to myself and then
accessing it later.


Thanks,

Radium

[RobV]

GreenXenon wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
> computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a forensics
> website that the evidence is not only on the platters of the HDD but
> also on the disk cache chips and the volatile RAM chips in the PC.
>
> Even if the PC is turned-off, the chips still contain sufficient
> amount of info that can be recoverd by top-secret devils of the NSA
> and Central Security Service. Apparenty they have some devices that
> can read EXTREMELY-WEAK electric signals from volatile RAM chips and
> recover what was lost then the power was turned-off. Is this true? If
> so, how to prevent this while still expressing my socially-
> unacceptable opinions on the internet?
>
> Are there any RAM chips that are PURELY-VOLATILE and that will lose
> all info when power is lost? If so, I'm thinking of buying a PC which
> uses these chips. As soon as I turn off the comp, no info remains at
> all.
>
> This is another reason I was discussing about RAM chips in another
> thread a few of minutes ago.
>
> Please note that I do not plan to write anything illegal on the net --
> no threats, no confessions, etc. However, I would like to express my
> opinions in chat rooms w/out facing negative consequences.
>
> My opinions differ from that of the general public and I want to
> forcefully-express my vulgar, obscene, and socially-unacceptable
> opinions in chat rooms [such as Yahoo-chat, ICQ, IRC, chat-zone, and
> spin-chat] without being falsely-accused of crime.
>
> While what I would like to write in chat-rooms is not illegal, public
> pressure would force authorities to do something. Public pressure
> might also force the enactment of new unjust laws possibly rendering
> my speeches illegal in the future.
>
> Sometimes authorities are forced to arrest and imprison innocent law-
> abiding citizens because of public outrage. At heart, the authorites
> don't want to jail innocent people but they have no choice. Society,
> being the evil scum it is, will overpower the police and force them to
> illegaly imprison me. Crowds of sadistic human beings will overturn
> police cars and start harming the police, if the police don't
> illegaly-
> arrest me. Sort of like a lynch-mob mentality against the police and
> me.
>
> I need protection from this unlawful, public-forced treatment.
>
> Sometimes society and the law are on opposite ends. This is one of
> them.
>
> That is why I would like to get a PC that doesn't have any RAM that is
> "purely-volatile" by my above definition.
>
> Because I am a complete law-abiding citizen, I have nothing to hide
> from the police. However, I have everything to hide from the public
> and society.
>
> In lynch-mob situations, police are powerless to do what they know is
> right. The cops are helpless must be a slave to the evil society.
>
> I respect the law, but I hate society.
>
> For the HDD platters, even after you thoroughly delete, overwrite and
> format a gazillion times, you're still on thin ice. The NSA and
> Central Security Service have equipment they can use to recover data
> from the magnetic platters on the HDD. The equipment they use is
> *extremely* sensitive to *extremely* weak magnetic signals on the
> magnetic platters. The only way to truly get rid off the data is to
> heat the platters beyond Curie point. The cache chips in the HD might
> also need to be burnt.
>
> I am worried similar sensitive devices could be used to read the
> extremely-weak electric signals present in the volatile RAM chips and
> disc cache chips.
>
> Due to the laws of physics, I suspect that the volatile RAM info might
> -- to some extent -- exist even after the system is turned off. Sure
> the wattage of those electric signals maybe *extremely*-low after shut
> down, but that does not mean the signals are not there anymore -- they
> are just way too weak to be detected and analyzed by ordinary means.
> At the quantum level, the differences in wattage levels which
> constitute what was the original volatile RAM info will continue to be
> there in the chip.
>
> I'm hoping this is just my paranoia and not true.
>
> Also, the disc cache chips are another grave concern to me, they also
> store RAM -- just not nearly as much as the platters of the HDD.
>
> I wonder if there are any PCs for sale anywhere that are free of any
> NVRAM devices and still work. The disdvantage of this is that nothing
> can be saved. The advantage is, malware can't be planted in it. Such a
> PC could connect to the internet and store text on websites -- for
> example, I could 'save' something by emailing it to myself and then
> accessing it later.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium

At the quantum level?
What's the common med for paranoia these days?


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[David H. Lipman]

From: "GreenXenon" <glucegen1x@gmail.com>



| Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
| computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a forensics
| website that the evidence is not only on the platters of the HDD but
| also on the disk cache chips and the volatile RAM chips in the PC.

| Even if the PC is turned-off, the chips still contain sufficient
| amount of info that can be recoverd by top-secret devils of the NSA
| and Central Security Service. Apparenty they have some devices that
| can read EXTREMELY-WEAK electric signals from volatile RAM chips and
| recover what was lost then the power was turned-off. Is this true? If
| so, how to prevent this while still expressing my socially-
| unacceptable opinions on the internet?

| Are there any RAM chips that are PURELY-VOLATILE and that will lose
| all info when power is lost? If so, I'm thinking of buying a PC which
| uses these chips. As soon as I turn off the comp, no info remains at
| all.

| This is another reason I was discussing about RAM chips in another
| thread a few of minutes ago.

| Please note that I do not plan to write anything illegal on the net --
| no threats, no confessions, etc. However, I would like to express my
| opinions in chat rooms w/out facing negative consequences.

| My opinions differ from that of the general public and I want to
| forcefully-express my vulgar, obscene, and socially-unacceptable
| opinions in chat rooms [such as Yahoo-chat, ICQ, IRC, chat-zone, and
| spin-chat] without being falsely-accused of crime.

| While what I would like to write in chat-rooms is not illegal, public
| pressure would force authorities to do something. Public pressure
| might also force the enactment of new unjust laws possibly rendering
| my speeches illegal in the future.

| Sometimes authorities are forced to arrest and imprison innocent law-
| abiding citizens because of public outrage. At heart, the authorites
| don't want to jail innocent people but they have no choice. Society,
| being the evil scum it is, will overpower the police and force them to
| illegaly imprison me. Crowds of sadistic human beings will overturn
| police cars and start harming the police, if the police don't
| illegaly-
| arrest me. Sort of like a lynch-mob mentality against the police and
| me.

| I need protection from this unlawful, public-forced treatment.

| Sometimes society and the law are on opposite ends. This is one of
| them.

| That is why I would like to get a PC that doesn't have any RAM that is
| "purely-volatile" by my above definition.

| Because I am a complete law-abiding citizen, I have nothing to hide
| from the police. However, I have everything to hide from the public
| and society.

| In lynch-mob situations, police are powerless to do what they know is
| right. The cops are helpless must be a slave to the evil society.

| I respect the law, but I hate society.

| For the HDD platters, even after you thoroughly delete, overwrite and
| format a gazillion times, you're still on thin ice. The NSA and
| Central Security Service have equipment they can use to recover data
| from the magnetic platters on the HDD. The equipment they use is
| *extremely* sensitive to *extremely* weak magnetic signals on the
| magnetic platters. The only way to truly get rid off the data is to
| heat the platters beyond Curie point. The cache chips in the HD might
| also need to be burnt.

| I am worried similar sensitive devices could be used to read the
| extremely-weak electric signals present in the volatile RAM chips and
| disc cache chips.

| Due to the laws of physics, I suspect that the volatile RAM info might
| -- to some extent -- exist even after the system is turned off. Sure
| the wattage of those electric signals maybe *extremely*-low after shut
| down, but that does not mean the signals are not there anymore -- they
| are just way too weak to be detected and analyzed by ordinary means.
| At the quantum level, the differences in wattage levels which
| constitute what was the original volatile RAM info will continue to be
| there in the chip.

| I'm hoping this is just my paranoia and not true.

| Also, the disc cache chips are another grave concern to me, they also
| store RAM -- just not nearly as much as the platters of the HDD.

| I wonder if there are any PCs for sale anywhere that are free of any
| NVRAM devices and still work. The disdvantage of this is that nothing
| can be saved. The advantage is, malware can't be planted in it. Such a
| PC could connect to the internet and store text on websites -- for
| example, I could 'save' something by emailing it to myself and then
| accessing it later.


| Thanks,

| Radium

Volatile RAM does not hold data after power is removed. Non-volatile RAM by definition
does hold data after power is removed.

--
Dave
http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp

[nemo_outis]

GreenXenon <glucegen1x@gmail.com> wrote in news:57c8e5e0-585e-40ae-809a-
6689c774b766@a12g2000pro.googlegroups.com:

> Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
> computer is turned off?


You are presumably reacting 10 months late to the paper:

Lest We Remember: Cold Boot Attacks on Encryption Keys
http://citp.princeton.edu/pub/coldboot.pdf

I and many others consider this paper to be sensationalist and even
somewhat dishonest, and are especially dismayed that it was thrust out in
a shameless self-promoting way without peer review. The kindest thing
that can be said for it is that, while it introduced nothing new, it
reminded people of a long-known effect, RAM remanence.

It has been known at least snce the 1970s that RAM preserves state for
some time after removal of power (RAM is, after all, essentially just
capacitors) and the the length of time before full discharge is extended
by cooling.

With that out of the way, it can be said that, for most modern RAM
memory, waiting about a minute after power off is more than sufficient to
ensure that RAM is not recoverable. (If you think you may be subject to a
no-knock raid, harden your machine with automatic shutoff and obstacles
to memory access that will take at least a minute.)

For extreme paranoids the following "double shutdown" drill removes all
doubt: Shut off the computer normally, reboot it from a CD and run a
memory zeroisation program, and then shut down for the second final time.
(If your BIOS supports a "long memory check on POST" option, then the
shutdown-reboot-shutdown-again drill does not require a CD, zeroisation
software, etc. Just shutdown-reboot with long memory test-shutdown).

For learning about additional subtleties, google is your friend.

Regards,

[Tim Jackson]

GreenXenon wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
> computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a forensics
> website that the evidence is not only on the platters of the HDD but
> also on the disk cache chips and the volatile RAM chips in the PC.
>
> Even if the PC is turned-off, the chips still contain sufficient
> amount of info that can be recoverd by top-secret devils of the NSA
> and Central Security Service. Apparenty they have some devices that
> can read EXTREMELY-WEAK electric signals from volatile RAM chips and
> recover what was lost then the power was turned-off. Is this true? If
> so, how to prevent this while still expressing my socially-
> unacceptable opinions on the internet?
>
> Are there any RAM chips that are PURELY-VOLATILE and that will lose
> all info when power is lost? If so, I'm thinking of buying a PC which
> uses these chips. As soon as I turn off the comp, no info remains at
> all.
>
> This is another reason I was discussing about RAM chips in another
> thread a few of minutes ago.
>
> Please note that I do not plan to write anything illegal on the net --
> no threats, no confessions, etc. However, I would like to express my
> opinions in chat rooms w/out facing negative consequences.
>
> My opinions differ from that of the general public and I want to
> forcefully-express my vulgar, obscene, and socially-unacceptable
> opinions in chat rooms [such as Yahoo-chat, ICQ, IRC, chat-zone, and
> spin-chat] without being falsely-accused of crime.
>

I don't want to encourage you to express anything vulgar and obscene in
public: most of us find it perfectly possible to express our opinions
without, and find that people are more readily convinced by calm polite
explanation than by insults. In my view Usenet is plagued by morons who
shout abuse because they have nothing to contribute. If those you have
insulted collect their pitchforks and torches and come around as a lynch
mob, then more power to them. Now if you were a political dissident
living in a repressive regime, then I would be more sympathetic.

To the best of my knowledge as an electronic engineer, there is no way
of detecting the residual state of a powered-down RAM chip. I suppose
if you were to precisely cut one open and place it in a scanning
electron microscope you might be able to decode something, but it would
be terribly expensive, unreliable and labour intensive. May be
justifiable if there is a serious possibility of finding an immediate
terrorist threat, but I doubt it, and it certainly couldn't be justified
for looking for a few swear words (it's not a crime in most
jurisdictions, why should the authorities even be interested?), or even
for pictures of you having sex with kids.

The issue of residual memory is really about what data comes up in RAM
when it is powered *up* again. Firstly, the original data is probably
retained if the supply voltage does not fall below a volt or so. In the
early days you could pretty much guarantee that after that the contents
would revert to a 'blank' pattern, typically some sort of chequerboard,
in a fraction of a second.

Modern RAM will hold on to data much longer without power. I know, to
my cost. I made the assumption in a 1980's design that my device could
detect a cold boot (and do necessary initialisation) by the fact that
certain memory locations would differ from their running values. In the
late '90s the chips in use had been 'improved', and my design failed
because it would not cold-start properly unless it had been switched off
for, in some cases, several hours.

So the state of the art is that on switch on after a few minutes power
down, you cannot rely on RAM to be either 'clear', or to retain its
original contents: you can reasonably assume that some parts will be
altered and some parts will remain. As the machine remains off the
memory image will progressively corrupt over time.


Tim Jackson

[Guy Macon]

GreenXenon wrote:

>Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
>computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a forensics
>website that the evidence is not only on the platters of the HDD but
>also on the disk cache chips and the volatile RAM chips in the PC.
>
>Even if the PC is turned-off, the chips still contain sufficient
>amount of info that can be recoverd by top-secret devils of the NSA
>and Central Security Service. Apparenty they have some devices that
>can read EXTREMELY-WEAK electric signals from volatile RAM chips and
>recover what was lost then the power was turned-off. Is this true? If
>so, how to prevent this while still expressing my socially-
>unacceptable opinions on the internet?

First, here is what you are doing wrong. After that you will
read my answer to the question asked.

You crossposted the above to:

misc.legal.computing,
alt.privacy,
alt.privacy.spyware,
alt.privacy.anon-server

It is off-topic in misc.legal.computing (it's a technical question,
not a legal question)

It is off-topic in alt.privacy.spyware (has nothing to do with spyware)

It is off-topic in alt.privacy.anon-server has nothing to do with
anonymous servers)

It is on-topic in alt.privacy.

You also crossposted this to:

alt.computer
alt.comp.hardware
alt.computers
alt.computer.security

....which pretty much insures that any knowledgable
replies from alt.computer.security will be buried
in uninformed replies from the other 3 groups.

As for the question asked...

Consider the job of the person who is tasked with
getting data off a computer. Let's assume for the
sake of vargument that you got involved with oganized
criminals and they just kicked down your door because
they think you are cheating them. Also assume that
they brought with them the best computer forensics
talent money can buy.

They point a gun at your head and tell you to step
away from the computer. Let's assume you were
already across the room getting coffee and cannot
get to the PC to trigger any special keystrokes.

First question: why didn't they start earlier with
a hardware keylogger and a hidden camera watching
your screen and keyboard?

Second question: why bother trying to extract anything
from RAM when it's so easy to beat the passwords out of
you? (and don't assume that governments can't come up
with a threat that will accomplish the same thing)

Third question: Are they going to leave it running until
they get all the specialized gear set up to freeze the RAM
chips and extract the data from them, or are they going
to suspect that you might have a timer running that will
wipe everything (RAM and HDD) if you don't reset it, and
thus decide to pull the power cord out of the wall/UPS
at once?


--
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/>

[ShadowTek]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:02:50 +0000, Tim Jackson wrote:

> I don't want to encourage you to express anything vulgar and obscene in
> public: most of us find it perfectly possible to express our opinions
> without,

Not everything considered "vulgar" or "obscene" by authorities is also
considered as such by rest of the population.

In some places, the words "Tienanmen Square Massacre" is not just
considered vulgar and obscene by authorities, but it is a punishable
crime.

[Ari]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 13:11:57 +0000, Guy Macon wrote:

> Second question: why bother trying to extract anything
> from RAM when it's so easy to beat the passwords out of
> you? (and don't assume that governments can't come up
> with a threat that will accomplish the same thing)

Personal fav: "Talk or we kill you."
--
Meet Ari!
http://tr.im/1fa3

[GreenXenon]

On Dec 22, 3:02 am, Tim Jackson <t...@tim-jackson.co.uk> wrote:

> If those you have
> insulted collect their pitchforks and torches and come around as a lynch
> mob, then more power to them.

The stuff I would like to write in chat rooms are not insulting,
hurtful, or offensive -- just extremely unacceptable by societal
norms.

As individuals, no one reading the stuff I right will have any at-
heart desire to harm me. However, if they see me, then they will be
forced by society's "herd mentality" to torture me to death.

One of the evil rules of society is, if you don't mistreat a social
outcast, then you become a social outcast. So that is what would force
people to lynch me -- even though they don't want to.

At heart, the individuals reading my chats will have nothing against
me. But because what I write is so socially-unacceptable, they will
feel the need to abuse me, in order to preserve their social status.

[Trespasser]

This is starting to sound weird, but if your beliefs or social 'preference's make you
resort to such intricate practices of security then perhaps its time you either kept them
to yourself or changed them.

By the way ....... I just have to ask. Which paedophile ring do you subscribe to.

--
Regards
Trespasser
---------------------
I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes two or three gang up on me.

I'm not paranoid, I use someone else's wireless network

Bt contract expires: 120 days (and counting)

So you think this signatures bad ? You should see my handwriting

Http://digitalgrudge.no-ip.org

----------------------------

[Baron]

GreenXenon wrote:

> Hi:
>
> Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
> computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a forensics
> website that the evidence is not only on the platters of the HDD but
> also on the disk cache chips and the volatile RAM chips in the PC.
>
> Even if the PC is turned-off, the chips still contain sufficient
> amount of info that can be recoverd by top-secret devils of the NSA
> and Central Security Service. Apparenty they have some devices that
> can read EXTREMELY-WEAK electric signals from volatile RAM chips and
> recover what was lost then the power was turned-off. Is this true? If
> so, how to prevent this while still expressing my socially-
> unacceptable opinions on the internet?
>
> Are there any RAM chips that are PURELY-VOLATILE and that will lose
> all info when power is lost? If so, I'm thinking of buying a PC which
> uses these chips. As soon as I turn off the comp, no info remains at
> all.
>
> This is another reason I was discussing about RAM chips in another
> thread a few of minutes ago.
>
> Please note that I do not plan to write anything illegal on the net --
> no threats, no confessions, etc. However, I would like to express my
> opinions in chat rooms w/out facing negative consequences.
>
> My opinions differ from that of the general public and I want to
> forcefully-express my vulgar, obscene, and socially-unacceptable
> opinions in chat rooms [such as Yahoo-chat, ICQ, IRC, chat-zone, and
> spin-chat] without being falsely-accused of crime.
>
> While what I would like to write in chat-rooms is not illegal, public
> pressure would force authorities to do something. Public pressure
> might also force the enactment of new unjust laws possibly rendering
> my speeches illegal in the future.
>
> Sometimes authorities are forced to arrest and imprison innocent law-
> abiding citizens because of public outrage. At heart, the authorites
> don't want to jail innocent people but they have no choice. Society,
> being the evil scum it is, will overpower the police and force them to
> illegaly imprison me. Crowds of sadistic human beings will overturn
> police cars and start harming the police, if the police don't
> illegaly-
> arrest me. Sort of like a lynch-mob mentality against the police and
> me.
>
> I need protection from this unlawful, public-forced treatment.
>
> Sometimes society and the law are on opposite ends. This is one of
> them.
>
> That is why I would like to get a PC that doesn't have any RAM that is
> "purely-volatile" by my above definition.
>
> Because I am a complete law-abiding citizen, I have nothing to hide
> from the police. However, I have everything to hide from the public
> and society.
>
> In lynch-mob situations, police are powerless to do what they know is
> right. The cops are helpless must be a slave to the evil society.
>
> I respect the law, but I hate society.
>
> For the HDD platters, even after you thoroughly delete, overwrite and
> format a gazillion times, you're still on thin ice. The NSA and
> Central Security Service have equipment they can use to recover data
> from the magnetic platters on the HDD. The equipment they use is
> *extremely* sensitive to *extremely* weak magnetic signals on the
> magnetic platters. The only way to truly get rid off the data is to
> heat the platters beyond Curie point. The cache chips in the HD might
> also need to be burnt.
>
> I am worried similar sensitive devices could be used to read the
> extremely-weak electric signals present in the volatile RAM chips and
> disc cache chips.
>
> Due to the laws of physics, I suspect that the volatile RAM info might
> -- to some extent -- exist even after the system is turned off. Sure
> the wattage of those electric signals maybe *extremely*-low after shut
> down, but that does not mean the signals are not there anymore -- they
> are just way too weak to be detected and analyzed by ordinary means.
> At the quantum level, the differences in wattage levels which
> constitute what was the original volatile RAM info will continue to be
> there in the chip.
>
> I'm hoping this is just my paranoia and not true.
>
> Also, the disc cache chips are another grave concern to me, they also
> store RAM -- just not nearly as much as the platters of the HDD.
>
> I wonder if there are any PCs for sale anywhere that are free of any
> NVRAM devices and still work. The disdvantage of this is that nothing
> can be saved. The advantage is, malware can't be planted in it. Such a
> PC could connect to the internet and store text on websites -- for
> example, I could 'save' something by emailing it to myself and then
> accessing it later.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium

I think that you are being too paranoid ! You probably have more to
fear from your ISP's records of your traffic over however long they are
obliged to keep them ! Most countries now legally oblige the ISP to
record and retain them for some minimum period.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

[Unruh]

GreenXenon <glucegen1x@gmail.com> writes:

>On Dec 22, 3:02 am, Tim Jackson <t...@tim-jackson.co.uk> wrote:

>> If those you have
>> insulted collect their pitchforks and torches and come around as a lynch
>> mob, then more power to them.

>The stuff I would like to write in chat rooms are not insulting,
>hurtful, or offensive -- just extremely unacceptable by societal
>norms.

???? You write in chat rooms where the stuff is saved forever, and are
worried that someone may be able to read the stuff from you ram. Can you
perhaps seen something totally bizzare in this? You think maybe that chat
rooms are like chatting with a friend on Hampstead Heath? It is not. Every
bite is recorded and saved forever. You will never ever be able to disown
it as yours.



>As individuals, no one reading the stuff I right will have any at-
>heart desire to harm me. However, if they see me, then they will be
>forced by society's "herd mentality" to torture me to death.

>One of the evil rules of society is, if you don't mistreat a social
>outcast, then you become a social outcast. So that is what would force
>people to lynch me -- even though they don't want to.

>At heart, the individuals reading my chats will have nothing against
>me. But because what I write is so socially-unacceptable, they will
>feel the need to abuse me, in order to preserve their social status.

You are like the Bellman (Hunting of the snark) that if you repeat it three
times it is true?

[GreenXenon]

On Dec 22, 1:21 pm, Unruh <unruh-s...@physics.ubc.ca> wrote:

> ???? You write in chat rooms where the stuff is saved forever
> You think maybe that chat
> rooms are like chatting with a friend on Hampstead Heath? It is not. Every
> bite is recorded and saved forever. You will never ever be able to disown
> it as yours.

The stuff I write maybe saved forever but...

1. None of what I would like to write is illegal

2. I can post from a wireless internet cafe and add an extra defense
of Mac-Spoofing and IP-spoofing. Right?

Each time I log on to the internet, use a different MAC address and
different IP address. MAC addresses can be cloned and emulated in
software as opposed to using the real hardware MAC address branded
into the network card.

If my laptop is NVRAM-free, cache-free and the above apply, then it
will be very difficult to identify/locate me. Right?

Also, a tempest-shield would add benefit in that those NSA/Central-
Security-Service creeps who drive around in vans scanning for leaked
radio-frequency info will have a significantly harder time oppressing
me.

Since my hypothetical laptop is cache-free and NVRAM-free, I would be
much safer from malware that would otherwise infect my laptop if it
had cache and/or NVRAM.

It would also be nice to have V-RAM chips which one can instantly
erase info without power-offing. Something with signal-multiplier and
phase-inversions. To eliminate the signal, make a copy of it, invert
the phase and then combine the copy with the original. Or, instead of
multipliers /inverters, something that can instantly attenuate the
voltage of the signal down to a perfect zero -- i.e. not a single hint
of electric potential difference -- not even at the quantum level.

[CBFalconer]

GreenXenon wrote:
>
> Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
> computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a forensics
> website that the evidence is not only on the platters of the HDD but
> also on the disk cache chips and the volatile RAM chips in the PC.

Probably not, but I won't say never. About 1975 or so I remember
buying some of the first 16k RAM chips, I believe from Electronic
Associates. They worked, were reasonably priced, but used 24 pin
DIP sockets as I remember. I found, by accident, that they would
retain their contents for something like 24 hours with all power
removed (to ensure that I removed the card from the system).

I even advised EA of this, but they just disappeared. At the time
development of an electrically rewriteable ROM would have been
valuable - the only thing available was UV erasable EPROMS. I
never took advantage of their characteristic, as I had no idea how
reliable it was, and my end use was medical instrumentation.

--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
Try the download section.

[kony]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:12:52 -0800 (PST), GreenXenon
<glucegen1x@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Dec 22, 1:21 pm, Unruh <unruh-s...@physics.ubc.ca> wrote:
>
>> ???? You write in chat rooms where the stuff is saved forever
>> You think maybe that chat
>> rooms are like chatting with a friend on Hampstead Heath? It is not. Every
>> bite is recorded and saved forever. You will never ever be able to disown
>> it as yours.
>
>The stuff I write maybe saved forever but...
>
>1. None of what I would like to write is illegal

Then you are being paranoid beyond reason. Without it being
illegal, it's irrelevant that there is no reasonable way to
recover contents of discharged volatile memory.


>
>2. I can post from a wireless internet cafe and add an extra defense
>of Mac-Spoofing and IP-spoofing. Right?

Extra defense against what? It seems as though you need to
be very specific about exactly what you think might happen
and then take steps to resolve this - like taking
medication.


>Each time I log on to the internet, use a different MAC address and
>different IP address. MAC addresses can be cloned and emulated in
>software as opposed to using the real hardware MAC address branded
>into the network card.

If you are doing nothing illegal, who would have access to
match up the real mac address to your system?



>
>If my laptop is NVRAM-free, cache-free and the above apply, then it
>will be very difficult to identify/locate me. Right?

Not really, you'll be traced through the internet cafe, so
you'll be the really paranoid looking fellow near their
access point.



>
>Also, a tempest-shield would add benefit in that those NSA/Central-
>Security-Service creeps who drive around in vans scanning for leaked
>radio-frequency info will have a significantly harder time oppressing
>me.

Excellent idea, by doing this you wouldn't be able to
transmit anything and so you have no need to spoof
addresses, no access to these forums so you can't post
mysterious non-illegal content which nobody will care about.


>
>Since my hypothetical laptop is cache-free and NVRAM-free, I would be
>much safer from malware that would otherwise infect my laptop if it
>had cache and/or NVRAM.
>

Untrue, malware does not depend on caches or nvram. It
generally resides in volatile memory and if it can, writes
itself to the operating system partition. You could have a
read-only OS partition, in theory at least though certainly
in practice a lot of typical functionality will be lost.



>It would also be nice to have V-RAM chips which one can instantly
>erase info without power-offing. Something with signal-multiplier and
>phase-inversions. To eliminate the signal, make a copy of it, invert
>the phase and then combine the copy with the original. Or, instead of
>multipliers /inverters, something that can instantly attenuate the
>voltage of the signal down to a perfect zero -- i.e. not a single hint
>of electric potential difference -- not even at the quantum level.

.... or you could just take your meds and stop doing whatever
is making you paranoid... and use a computer like everyone
else does w/o issue.

I'd have to wonder though, what's the point of keeping the
power to the system if you've erased the memory so it can't
run anything?

If someone were that anxious to nail you, and as you wrote
you aren't doing anything illegal, what makes you think they
would require clear evidence of anything to convince others
(since it's not a court of law), that this somehow preceeds
throwing you into a van and wisking you away to a padded
room?

[~misfit~]

Somewhere on teh intarwebs "GreenXenon" typed:
>
> I respect the law, but I hate society.

Surely then the logical thing to do is isolate yourself, become a hermit,
rather than antagonise?

Unless some of that hate expresses as self-hate as, obviously, if you're
partiicipating in 'society' via chat then you're part of the thing you
profess to hate.
--
Shaun.

[GreenXenon]

On Dec 22, 2:47 pm, kony <s...@spam.com> wrote:


> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:12:52 -0800 (PST), GreenXenon


>
> <glucege...@gmail.com> wrote:


> >On Dec 22, 1:21 pm, Unruh <unruh-s...@physics.ubc.ca> wrote:


>


> >> ???? You write in chat rooms where the stuff is saved forever
> >> You think maybe that chat
> >> rooms are like chatting with a friend on Hampstead Heath? It is not. Every
> >> bite is recorded and saved forever. You will never ever be able to disown
> >> it as yours.


>
> >The stuff I write maybe saved forever but...
>
> >1. None of what I would like to write is illegal
>


> Then you are being paranoid beyond reason. Without it being
> illegal, it's irrelevant that there is no reasonable way to
> recover contents of discharged volatile memory.


Evil corrupt NSA/Central-Security-Service scumbags like to assist
society in abusing social outcasts.


>
>
>
> >2. I can post from a wireless internet cafe and add an extra defense
> >of Mac-Spoofing and IP-spoofing. Right?
>


> Extra defense against what?


Evil society figuring out my location/identity, dragging me into the
middle of the street and burning me alive. Defense against that.


>
> >Each time I log on to the internet, use a different MAC address and
> >different IP address. MAC addresses can be cloned and emulated in
> >software as opposed to using the real hardware MAC address branded
> >into the network card.
>


> If you are doing nothing illegal, who would have access to
> match up the real mac address to your system?


Corrupt NSA/CSS pieces of crap who gain pleasure from abusing American
citizens.


>
>
>
> >If my laptop is NVRAM-free, cache-free and the above apply, then it
> >will be very difficult to identify/locate me. Right?


> Not really, you'll be traced through the internet cafe, so
> you'll be the really paranoid looking fellow near their
> access point.


What if I access their wireless internet connection through my car and
my windows are adequately tinted?


>
>
>
> >Also, a tempest-shield would add benefit in that those NSA/Central-
> >Security-Service creeps who drive around in vans scanning for leaked
> >radio-frequency info will have a significantly harder time oppressing
> >me.
>


> Excellent idea, by doing this you wouldn't be able to
> transmit anything and so you have no need to spoof
> addresses, no access to these forums so you can't post
> mysterious non-illegal content which nobody will care about.


Data can still be transmitted/received but if the RAM chips are
shielded them their electric-signals won't generate radio-signals that
can be picked up by distant objects -- such as a van.


>
>
>
> >Since my hypothetical laptop is cache-free and NVRAM-free, I would be
> >much safer from malware that would otherwise infect my laptop if it
> >had cache and/or NVRAM.
>


> Untrue, malware does not depend on caches or nvram. It
> generally resides in volatile memory and if it can, writes
> itself to the operating system partition. You could have a
> read-only OS partition, in theory at least though certainly
> in practice a lot of typical functionality will be lost.


What functionality would be lost if my OS partitions are read-only?


>
> >It would also be nice to have V-RAM chips which one can instantly
> >erase info without power-offing. Something with signal-multiplier and
> >phase-inversions. To eliminate the signal, make a copy of it, invert
> >the phase and then combine the copy with the original. Or, instead of
> >multipliers /inverters, something that can instantly attenuate the
> >voltage of the signal down to a perfect zero -- i.e. not a single hint
> >of electric potential difference -- not even at the quantum level.


> I'd have to wonder though, what's the point of keeping the
> power to the system if you've erased the memory so it can't
> run anything?


Good point, the goal is to eliminate some V-RAM info but not all of
it. Of course, this isn't all that important, I discussed it simply of
curiosity.

[Guy Macon]

Trespasser wrote:

>This is starting to sound weird, but if your beliefs or social
>'preference's make you resort to such intricate practices of
>security then perhaps its time you either kept them to yourself
>or changed them.
>
>By the way ....... I just have to ask. Which paedophile ring
>do you subscribe to.

Don't assume that everyone with an interest in privacy
is up to no good (don't assume that they aren't either.)
I got interested in privacy issues many years ago when
someone who has relatives in China asked me for help.
They aren't political, but still fear their own
government. Another good example is the US revolution;
Thomas Paine's Common Sense was published under the name
"Anonymous", with Paine only taking credit after the
war was over.

--
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/>

[Guy Macon]

Something is wrong with the claims of "GreenXenon"...

First he claims that "None of what I would like to write
is illegal", then he expresses concern about someone
doing forensics on his RAM chips -- an activity that only
governments engage in, and only for high-value targets.

Then he posts from Google Groups using the same IP address
(cpe-98-154-25-80.socal.res.rr.com [98.154.25.80]) again
and again, meanwhile revealing his browser and OS.

Then he talks about a "tempest shield."

None of this makes any sense. Once your opponent knows
who you are and has physical control of your person and
computer, the game is over. Proper use of the remailer
network and TOR makes it very hard for them to know who
you are.


--
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/>

[Ken Maltby]

"GreenXenon" <glucegen1x@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:57c8e5e0-585e-40ae-809a-6689c774b766@a12g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> Hi:
>
> Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
> computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a forensics
> website that the evidence is not only on the platters of the HDD but
> also on the disk cache chips and the volatile RAM chips in the PC.

<Snip the rest of the paranoia.>

>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium


"Radium" is a famous "gift" from GoogleGroups. That
they still let him have access to a computer must be a reward
of some kind. Probably for pretending to take his meds.
While it's possible this is a different "Radium", it fits his old
style. You can expect it to get more weird as time goes by.

Luck;
Ken

[Ari]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:04:40 -0000, Trespasser wrote:

> By the way ....... I just have to ask. Which paedophile ring do you subscribe to.

****.
--
Meet Ari!
http://tr.im/1fa3

[Tim Jackson]

Guy Macon wrote:
> Trespasser wrote:
>
>> This is starting to sound weird, but if your beliefs or social
>> 'preference's make you resort to such intricate practices of
>> security then perhaps its time you either kept them to yourself
>> or changed them.
>>
>> By the way ....... I just have to ask. Which paedophile ring
>> do you subscribe to.
>
> Don't assume that everyone with an interest in privacy
> is up to no good (don't assume that they aren't either.)
> I got interested in privacy issues many years ago when
> someone who has relatives in China asked me for help.
> They aren't political, but still fear their own
> government. Another good example is the US revolution;
> Thomas Paine's Common Sense was published under the name
> "Anonymous", with Paine only taking credit after the
> war was over.
>

The pro-security mantra is usually "if you have nothing to hide you have
nothing to fear". (Just tell that to Jean-Charles de Menezes.)

Most people have *something* to hide, albeit not what the speaker had in
mind. So most people have something to fear from state security even
though they may be completely law-abiding.

The obvious example is a guy behaving suspiciously because he is hiding
his infidelity from his wife. He has indeed something to hide, but
nothing that the security wonks would be interested in, or that
threatens society in any but the most philosophical way. But they can't
tell that from his behaviour.

Hiding stuff is normal human behaviour. Many businesses depend on
hiding stuff as part of their business model (why does Microsoft spring
to mind?). It is not evidence of crime per se (hmmm).

GreenXenon may be a paranoid loony of the tinfoil helmet brigade (for
all I know) and it would be wrong to make assumptions about what he is
actually trying to hide. Nonetheless it is fair to advise proper risk
assessment. It is hard to imagine a scenario where scanning the
residual image in a computer's RAM after power down would actually
provide any useful information not more easily obtained elsewhere or by
other means.

Obviously if this failed, his attackers would use fMRI to scan his
brain, determine that he was thinking about cauliflowers, and burn him
at the stake for vegetable perversion.

The sort of threats he seems concerned about have more to do with
witch-hunts than computer security. In those circumstances no-one would
let facts get in the way of a good bonfire. Just ask the police to take
you into protective custody, it's the best solution for everyone.


Tim

[Trespasser]

"Ari" <DROPTheJooseIsLoose@gmail.comCAPITALLETTERS> wrote in message
news:giq443$c33$1@news.motzarella.org...
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:04:40 -0000, Trespasser wrote:
>
>> By the way ....... I just have to ask. Which paedophile ring do you subscribe to.
>
> ****.
> --
> Meet Ari!
> http://tr.im/1fa3
>

LMAO!

You have a right to call me a ****, no offence has been taken as you are entitled to say
what you think. I have exercised my right to say what I think regardless of offending
people.

My point is that if you / they / us / them ...... have to ask such questions it provokes
the assumption that the user has something deep to hide. I really don't care what it is,
but to ask the question (presumably) from the same machine you are questioning the
security of, and using the ISP you are subscribed to, and to post this on a newsgroup
brings up the question of thinking things through.

If I was planning a robbery I wouldn't ask a policeman how often the local constabulary
patrol the area and how long would I have to relieve the owner of this shop of his daily
cash, oh and which gun should I use officer......... Or asking the owner of the wireless
network to leave it on for me during the night so I can finish my game playing and
downloads.

""GreenXenon Quote""

""My opinions differ from that of the general public and I want to
> forcefully-express my vulgar, obscene, and socially-unacceptable
> opinions in chat rooms [such as Yahoo-chat, ICQ, IRC, chat-zone, and
> spin-chat] without being falsely-accused of crime.
>
> While what I would like to write in chat-rooms is not illegal, public
> pressure would force authorities to do something. Public pressure
> might also force the enactment of new unjust laws possibly rendering
> my speeches illegal in the future.
>
> Sometimes authorities are forced to arrest and imprison innocent law-
> abiding citizens because of public outrage. At heart, the authorities
> don't want to jail innocent people but they have no choice. Society,
> being the evil scum it is, will overpower the police and force them to
> illegally imprison me. Crowds of sadistic human beings will overturn
> police cars and start harming the police, if the police don't
> illegally-
> arrest me. Sort of like a lynch-mob mentality against the police and
> me.""


Therefore based on these comments the original poster has presented I think its too late
to worry about what data can be recovered from RAM, they have already presented enough
information that could be used to start a riot or other public disorder and added to this
if they are using wireless connections they may already have been compromised.



--
Regards
Trespasser
---------------------
I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes two or three gang up on me.

I'm not paranoid, I use someone else's wireless network

Bt contract expires: 120 days (and counting)

So you think this signatures bad ? You should see my handwriting

Http://digitalgrudge.no-ip.org

----------------------------

[Guy Macon]

Trespasser wrote:
>
>Ari wrote...
>
>>Trespasser wrote:
>>
>>> By the way ....... I just have to ask.
>>> Which paedophile ring do you subscribe to.
>>
>> ****.
>
>LMAO!
>
>You have a right to call me a ****, no offence has been taken as
>you are entitled to say what you think.

WHOOSH!!!

That's the sound of someone totally missing the point...

Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****_ring

[Trespasser]

"Guy Macon" <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote in message
news:E5ydndJnhvQGiMzURVn_vwA@giganews.com...
>
>
>
> Trespasser wrote:
>>
>>Ari wrote...
>>
>>>Trespasser wrote:
>>>
>>>> By the way ....... I just have to ask.
>>>> Which paedophile ring do you subscribe to.
>>>
>>> ****.
>>
>>LMAO!
>>
>>You have a right to call me a ****, no offence has been taken as
>>you are entitled to say what you think.
>
> WHOOSH!!!
>
> That's the sound of someone totally missing the point...
>
> Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****_ring
>
>

PMSL!

Next time i'll stand on a box, then perhaps it will not go over my head.

--
Regards
Trespasser
---------------------
I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes two or three gang up on me.

I'm not paranoid, I use someone else's wireless network

Bt contract expires: 120 days (and counting)

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Http://digitalgrudge.no-ip.org

----------------------------

[Unruh]

GreenXenon <glucegen1x@gmail.com> writes:

>On Dec 22, 1:21 pm, Unruh <unruh-s...@physics.ubc.ca> wrote:

>> ???? You write in chat rooms where the stuff is saved forever
>> You think maybe that chat
>> rooms are like chatting with a friend on Hampstead Heath? It is not. Every
>> bite is recorded and saved forever. You will never ever be able to disown
>> it as yours.

>The stuff I write maybe saved forever but...

>1. None of what I would like to write is illegal

>2. I can post from a wireless internet cafe and add an extra defense
>of Mac-Spoofing and IP-spoofing. Right?

Sure, but if you think that hides you you are badly informed.


>Each time I log on to the internet, use a different MAC address and
>different IP address. MAC addresses can be cloned and emulated in
>software as opposed to using the real hardware MAC address branded
>into the network card.

>If my laptop is NVRAM-free, cache-free and the above apply, then it
>will be very difficult to identify/locate me. Right?

No.


>Also, a tempest-shield would add benefit in that those NSA/Central-
>Security-Service creeps who drive around in vans scanning for leaked
>radio-frequency info will have a significantly harder time oppressing
>me.

>Since my hypothetical laptop is cache-free and NVRAM-free, I would be
>much safer from malware that would otherwise infect my laptop if it
>had cache and/or NVRAM.

>It would also be nice to have V-RAM chips which one can instantly
>erase info without power-offing. Something with signal-multiplier and
>phase-inversions. To eliminate the signal, make a copy of it, invert
>the phase and then combine the copy with the original. Or, instead of
>multipliers /inverters, something that can instantly attenuate the
>voltage of the signal down to a perfect zero -- i.e. not a single hint
>of electric potential difference -- not even at the quantum level.

[Ian D]

"CBFalconer" <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:495017C5.EA1B6C53@yahoo.com...
> GreenXenon wrote:
>>
>> Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
>> computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a forensics
>> website that the evidence is not only on the platters of the HDD but
>> also on the disk cache chips and the volatile RAM chips in the PC.
>
> Probably not, but I won't say never. About 1975 or so I remember
> buying some of the first 16k RAM chips, I believe from Electronic
> Associates. They worked, were reasonably priced, but used 24 pin
> DIP sockets as I remember. I found, by accident, that they would
> retain their contents for something like 24 hours with all power
> removed (to ensure that I removed the card from the system).
>
> I even advised EA of this, but they just disappeared. At the time
> development of an electrically rewriteable ROM would have been
> valuable - the only thing available was UV erasable EPROMS. I
> never took advantage of their characteristic, as I had no idea how
> reliable it was, and my end use was medical instrumentation.
>
> --
> [mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
> [page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
> Try the download section.

Those would be static RAM chips. The data bits were stored in
flip-flops, which means two MOS transistors per bit. Each bit
retained its state until changed, or power was removed. As you
found out, the MOS transistors could retain their charges for
a time after power was removed. Static RAM was expensive,
but very fast and required minimal support cicuitry. I still have
a bunch of TI TMS4044 18 pin 4k static RAM chips.

Then along came dynamic RAM that required only one transistor
per bit, but required constant refreshing, as the data bits were
stored on tiny capacitors that would lose their charges in a fraction
of a microsecond. Dynamic RAM was a lot less expensive, and
able to be packed into large capacity, dense arrays. Now we have
densities of 2 gigabits per chip.

[Tim Jackson]

Ian D wrote:
>
> Then along came dynamic RAM that required only one transistor
> per bit, but required constant refreshing, as the data bits were
> stored on tiny capacitors that would lose their charges in a fraction
> of a microsecond.
>
>
Point of order your honour.

It was about 50 milliseconds actually, in early desktop computer designs
( cf Apple][ ) they were refreshed by the frame scan of memory-mapped
video without any additional circuitry.


Tim Jackson

[CBFalconer]

Ian D wrote:
> "CBFalconer" <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> GreenXenon wrote:
>>>
>>> Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after
>>> the computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a
>>> forensics website that the evidence is not only on the platters
>>> of the HDD but also on the disk cache chips and the volatile
>>> RAM chips in the PC.
>>
>> Probably not, but I won't say never. About 1975 or so I remember
>> buying some of the first 16k RAM chips, I believe from Electronic
>> Associates. They worked, were reasonably priced, but used 24 pin
>> DIP sockets as I remember. I found, by accident, that they would
>> retain their contents for something like 24 hours with all power
>> removed (to ensure that I removed the card from the system).
>>
>> I even advised EA of this, but they just disappeared. At the time
>> development of an electrically rewriteable ROM would have been
>> valuable - the only thing available was UV erasable EPROMS. I
>> never took advantage of their characteristic, as I had no idea how
>> reliable it was, and my end use was medical instrumentation.
>
> Those would be static RAM chips. The data bits were stored in
> flip-flops, which means two MOS transistors per bit. Each bit
> retained its state until changed, or power was removed. As you
> found out, the MOS transistors could retain their charges for
> a time after power was removed. Static RAM was expensive,
> but very fast and required minimal support cicuitry. I still have
> a bunch of TI TMS4044 18 pin 4k static RAM chips.

They definitely were static. However, 24 hours seemed excessive.
I tested them for complete memory over the period.

--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
Try the download section.

[kony]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:17:49 -0800 (PST), GreenXenon
<glucegen1x@gmail.com> wrote:


>> Then you are being paranoid beyond reason. Without it being
>> illegal, it's irrelevant that there is no reasonable way to
>> recover contents of discharged volatile memory.
>
>
>Evil corrupt NSA/Central-Security-Service scumbags like to assist
>society in abusing social outcasts.

Well it's beside the point now, we've located you and will
be by shortly...

[Ari]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 12:59:22 -0000, Trespasser wrote:

> "Ari" <DROPTheJooseIsLoose@gmail.comCAPITALLETTERS> wrote in message
> news:giq443$c33$1@news.motzarella.org...
>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:04:40 -0000, Trespasser wrote:
>>
>>> By the way ....... I just have to ask. Which paedophile ring do you subscribe to.
>>
>> ****.

> LMAO!
>
> You have a right to call me a ****, no offence has been taken as you are entitled to say
> what you think. I have exercised my right to say what I think regardless of offending
> people.

I wasn't calling you a ****.

> My point is that if you / they / us / them ...... have to ask such questions it provokes
> the assumption that the user has something deep to hide. I really don't care what it is,
> but to ask the question (presumably) from the same machine you are questioning the
> security of, and using the ISP you are subscribed to, and to post this on a newsgroup
> brings up the question of thinking things through.

No, it registers morbid ignorance, clinical quality stupidity.
--
Meet Ari!
http://tr.im/1fa3

[John Smith]

GreenXenon wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
> computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a forensics
> website that the evidence is not only on the platters of the HDD but
> also on the disk cache chips and the volatile RAM chips in the PC.
>
> Even if the PC is turned-off, the chips still contain sufficient
> amount of info that can be recoverd by top-secret devils of the NSA
> and Central Security Service. Apparenty they have some devices that
> can read EXTREMELY-WEAK electric signals from volatile RAM chips and
> recover what was lost then the power was turned-off. Is this true? If
> so, how to prevent this while still expressing my socially-
> unacceptable opinions on the internet?
>
> Are there any RAM chips that are PURELY-VOLATILE and that will lose
> all info when power is lost? If so, I'm thinking of buying a PC which
> uses these chips. As soon as I turn off the comp, no info remains at
> all.
>
> This is another reason I was discussing about RAM chips in another
> thread a few of minutes ago.
>
> Please note that I do not plan to write anything illegal on the net --
> no threats, no confessions, etc. However, I would like to express my
> opinions in chat rooms w/out facing negative consequences.
>
> My opinions differ from that of the general public and I want to
> forcefully-express my vulgar, obscene, and socially-unacceptable
> opinions in chat rooms [such as Yahoo-chat, ICQ, IRC, chat-zone, and
> spin-chat] without being falsely-accused of crime.
>
> While what I would like to write in chat-rooms is not illegal, public
> pressure would force authorities to do something. Public pressure
> might also force the enactment of new unjust laws possibly rendering
> my speeches illegal in the future.
>
> Sometimes authorities are forced to arrest and imprison innocent law-
> abiding citizens because of public outrage. At heart, the authorites
> don't want to jail innocent people but they have no choice. Society,
> being the evil scum it is, will overpower the police and force them to
> illegaly imprison me. Crowds of sadistic human beings will overturn
> police cars and start harming the police, if the police don't
> illegaly-
> arrest me. Sort of like a lynch-mob mentality against the police and
> me.
>
> I need protection from this unlawful, public-forced treatment.
>
> Sometimes society and the law are on opposite ends. This is one of
> them.
>
> That is why I would like to get a PC that doesn't have any RAM that is
> "purely-volatile" by my above definition.
>
> Because I am a complete law-abiding citizen, I have nothing to hide
> from the police. However, I have everything to hide from the public
> and society.
>
> In lynch-mob situations, police are powerless to do what they know is
> right. The cops are helpless must be a slave to the evil society.
>
> I respect the law, but I hate society.
>
> For the HDD platters, even after you thoroughly delete, overwrite and
> format a gazillion times, you're still on thin ice. The NSA and
> Central Security Service have equipment they can use to recover data
> from the magnetic platters on the HDD. The equipment they use is
> *extremely* sensitive to *extremely* weak magnetic signals on the
> magnetic platters. The only way to truly get rid off the data is to
> heat the platters beyond Curie point. The cache chips in the HD might
> also need to be burnt.
>
> I am worried similar sensitive devices could be used to read the
> extremely-weak electric signals present in the volatile RAM chips and
> disc cache chips.
>
> Due to the laws of physics, I suspect that the volatile RAM info might
> -- to some extent -- exist even after the system is turned off. Sure
> the wattage of those electric signals maybe *extremely*-low after shut
> down, but that does not mean the signals are not there anymore -- they
> are just way too weak to be detected and analyzed by ordinary means.
> At the quantum level, the differences in wattage levels which
> constitute what was the original volatile RAM info will continue to be
> there in the chip.
>
> I'm hoping this is just my paranoia and not true.
>
> Also, the disc cache chips are another grave concern to me, they also
> store RAM -- just not nearly as much as the platters of the HDD.
>
> I wonder if there are any PCs for sale anywhere that are free of any
> NVRAM devices and still work. The disdvantage of this is that nothing
> can be saved. The advantage is, malware can't be planted in it. Such a
> PC could connect to the internet and store text on websites -- for
> example, I could 'save' something by emailing it to myself and then
> accessing it later.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium

I just happened to come across an article on this, the answer is no
after about 1 hour at the outset, according to the article anyway?