wireless specs

[William Andersen]

What's the difference in range?
I see wireless routers for as little as $19; most of them are $49; and some
are pretty expensive.
I'm happy with my ZyXEL P-330W 802.11g (I think it was less than $50), but I
only use it to access the internet from within my house. I'll be temporarily
working at a different location and I'll be 100' from it, in a workshop in
the backyard. The router will be on the second floor, and can be located in
the attic, if necessary.
Is there a spec that provides a clue about range? If it won't work at that
distance I'll buy a different one to take with me.
My HP laptop has wireless builtin.

[Mark McIntyre]

William Andersen wrote:

> working at a different location and I'll be 100' from it, in a workshop in
> the backyard. The router will be on the second floor, and can be located in
> the attic, if necessary.

Personally I'd be surprised if your existing setup work that far without
a directional antenna. It depends what's between router and client -
trees, walls, neighbours with wireless etc etc.

> Is there a spec that provides a clue about range? If it won't work at that
> distance I'll buy a different one to take with me.

The only way you're going to know is to do a site survey with your
existing router and laptop. No paper specs will tell you if it will work.

> My HP laptop has wireless builtin.

builtin adapters often have terrible aerials. Check to see if you can
add an external antenna, and consider using a USB device which you can
position for better strength.

[seaweedsteve]

Your router is probably fine, especially if it has a removeable
antenna.

Got line of sight from your house to the shop?

See what the existing antenna can do with a simple site survey:
Get Netstumbler running on your laptop and with the router as is,
walk out to the shop. Try different router placements. You might find
that the signal reaches the shop exterior, possibly inside if you can
line up with a window.

Once you see if and how much gain you need:

- Put a homemade reflector on the router antenna. Point it towards the
shop. Adds significant gain. Easy to make.

- Put a higher gain directional antenna on the router.

- Use a USB adapter for your laptop. Mount it up high/in a window/
outside,whatever for best reception.

- Add a directional antenna to the USB (or buy a USB dish antenna to
start with).


Steve

[William Andersen]

Thanks for the replies.
We visit in PA for several months and I'll be leaving my modem and router
behind for the children and grandchildren to use while I'm gone.
In PA, the modem is on the second floor and I'll connect it to a router
there, but I can move them to the attic. If I go to the attic I'll be able
to put them next to a window. The shop is in clear view, no obstacles, but
90' away. I'm hoping I can use the wireless feature of my laptop, and not
have to connect any cables to it. I can sometimes access a neighbors
internet while I'm in the house; that's about the same distance, and through
at least a couple of walls.

seaweedsteve" <seaweedsteve@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6508a60c-2604-4954-9e50-a70dd998a563@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> Your router is probably fine, especially if it has a removeable
> antenna.
>
> Got line of sight from your house to the shop?
>
> See what the existing antenna can do with a simple site survey:
> Get Netstumbler running on your laptop and with the router as is,
> walk out to the shop. Try different router placements. You might find
> that the signal reaches the shop exterior, possibly inside if you can
> line up with a window.
>
> Once you see if and how much gain you need:
>
> - Put a homemade reflector on the router antenna. Point it towards the
> shop. Adds significant gain. Easy to make.
>
> - Put a higher gain directional antenna on the router.
>
> - Use a USB adapter for your laptop. Mount it up high/in a window/
> outside,whatever for best reception.
>
> - Add a directional antenna to the USB (or buy a USB dish antenna to
> start with).
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Jeff Liebermann]

"William Andersen" <wgander@cox.net> hath wroth:

>What's the difference in range?

Probably none. Minor changes in router design offer some minor
variations in range. What really makes a *BIG* difference is the gain
of the antenna system. However, there's no free lunch. If you want
to increase the range in one direction, you do it by redirecting the
power that would normally be lost going in the wrong direction, thus
trading coverage area for range.

>I see wireless routers for as little as $19; most of them are $49; and some
>are pretty expensive.

Many of the differences are tied up in router features, not wireless
features. Some have dual band radios (2.4GHz and 5.7GHz). Some have
security features (VPN termination). Some have enhanced *SPEED*
features (Pre-802.11n, Turbo-G, Afterburner, etc) none of which offer
more range.

>I'm happy with my ZyXEL P-330W 802.11g (I think it was less than $50), but I
>only use it to access the internet from within my house.

>I'll be temporarily
>working at a different location and I'll be 100' from it, in a workshop in
>the backyard. The router will be on the second floor, and can be located in
>the attic, if necessary.

100ft through what appears to be 2 walls is going to be difficult. If
the walls are made of concrete and steel, or you have foil backed
insulation in the walls, it will be impossible. Range is really a
function of the environment. Also, when you're setting up in a new
location, there's also the possibility of interefrence from existing
systems. Having the local municipal network installed outside your
window will essentially trash your home network.

>Is there a spec that provides a clue about range?

No. It's a combination of ingredients with no single number or
parameter. Everything can be traded for range.
1. Wireless router TX power
2. Wireless router RX sensitivity
3. Wireless client TX power
4. Wireless client RX sensitivity
5. Wireless router antenna gain
6. Wireless client antenna gain.
7. Wireless connection speed.
8. Interference susceptibility.
9. Signal loss in obstructions along the path.
10. Fresnel Zone losses.
11. Environmental issues (fog and rain attenuation).
12. Whatever else I forgot.

If you don't mind, I don't want to get into how each of these affects
range in detail. Basically, the bottom line if the fade margin, which
establishes how reliable the connection will be and at what speed the
connection will run. If you increase drop the path loss by 6dB (such
as by increasing the antenna gain(s) by 6dB), the range doubles. If
you increase the transmit power by 6dB, the range doubles.

Or, you can trade speed for range. At a given fade margin, if you
drop the speed 4 times, the range will be double.

It is possible to calculate the range if all the aformentioned are
known. This is normally used for microwave point to point links,
where moving obstructions, moving wireless clients, and interference
are uncommon. It can also be calculated using terrain models, as in
cellular coverage calculations, but you would need to have an accurate
architectual map of your workshop and backyard to do this.

>If it won't work at that
>distance I'll buy a different one to take with me.
>My HP laptop has wireless builtin.

If your coverage requirements are all in one direction, then any
wireless router with an external antenna connector, plus a moderately
directional gain antenna will help. Putting the antenna in a window
will be a huge help (to avoid going through at least one wall).

However, there's no way to predict or guarantee that it will work. For
example, if your workshop is a metal building, it won't work. The
easiest way is to take what you have, and just try it. If it works,
an external gain antenna will be a big help. Try different locations
and positions.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[William Andersen]

Thanks.
The home is in a smalll community on a 1/4 acre lot. The utility pole for
electric and cable service is next to the shop and the lines to the house
run almost parallel to the sidewalk between shop and house. I don't know if
they will provide any interference to the signal.
Both shop and house are wooden construction. The shop was built in the early
'40s and has interior walls of celotex for insulation; the house was built
in 1898 and I don't think the walls are insulated. My wife grw up in the
house and remembers her Dad building the shop. She remembers him finishing
parts of the house, but not insulating it. A neighbor's home had old
newspapers between interior and exterior wooden walls. The home had siding
of a rubbery shingle style (I don't remember what it was called) which has
beencovered with vinyl siding. The shop had that sasme shingle siding but
has been covered with T-111 wooden siding. The shop has an attic space, too,
so if I go to an external antenna, I have a good place for it.


"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:04g8s3potu4cj3su1ere7o1niuqunvdbrf@4ax.com...
> "William Andersen" <wgander@cox.net> hath wroth:
>
>>What's the difference in range?
>
> Probably none. Minor changes in router design offer some minor
> variations in range. What really makes a *BIG* difference is the gain
> of the antenna system. However, there's no free lunch. If you want
> to increase the range in one direction, you do it by redirecting the
> power that would normally be lost going in the wrong direction, thus
> trading coverage area for range.
>
>>I see wireless routers for as little as $19; most of them are $49; and
>>some
>>are pretty expensive.
>
> Many of the differences are tied up in router features, not wireless
> features. Some have dual band radios (2.4GHz and 5.7GHz). Some have
> security features (VPN termination). Some have enhanced *SPEED*
> features (Pre-802.11n, Turbo-G, Afterburner, etc) none of which offer
> more range.
>
>>I'm happy with my ZyXEL P-330W 802.11g (I think it was less than $50), but
>>I
>>only use it to access the internet from within my house.
>
>>I'll be temporarily
>>working at a different location and I'll be 100' from it, in a workshop in
>>the backyard. The router will be on the second floor, and can be located
>>in
>>the attic, if necessary.
>
> 100ft through what appears to be 2 walls is going to be difficult. If
> the walls are made of concrete and steel, or you have foil backed
> insulation in the walls, it will be impossible. Range is really a
> function of the environment. Also, when you're setting up in a new
> location, there's also the possibility of interefrence from existing
> systems. Having the local municipal network installed outside your
> window will essentially trash your home network.
>
>>Is there a spec that provides a clue about range?
>
> No. It's a combination of ingredients with no single number or
> parameter. Everything can be traded for range.
> 1. Wireless router TX power
> 2. Wireless router RX sensitivity
> 3. Wireless client TX power
> 4. Wireless client RX sensitivity
> 5. Wireless router antenna gain
> 6. Wireless client antenna gain.
> 7. Wireless connection speed.
> 8. Interference susceptibility.
> 9. Signal loss in obstructions along the path.
> 10. Fresnel Zone losses.
> 11. Environmental issues (fog and rain attenuation).
> 12. Whatever else I forgot.
>
> If you don't mind, I don't want to get into how each of these affects
> range in detail. Basically, the bottom line if the fade margin, which
> establishes how reliable the connection will be and at what speed the
> connection will run. If you increase drop the path loss by 6dB (such
> as by increasing the antenna gain(s) by 6dB), the range doubles. If
> you increase the transmit power by 6dB, the range doubles.
>
> Or, you can trade speed for range. At a given fade margin, if you
> drop the speed 4 times, the range will be double.
>
> It is possible to calculate the range if all the aformentioned are
> known. This is normally used for microwave point to point links,
> where moving obstructions, moving wireless clients, and interference
> are uncommon. It can also be calculated using terrain models, as in
> cellular coverage calculations, but you would need to have an accurate
> architectual map of your workshop and backyard to do this.
>
>>If it won't work at that
>>distance I'll buy a different one to take with me.
>>My HP laptop has wireless builtin.
>
> If your coverage requirements are all in one direction, then any
> wireless router with an external antenna connector, plus a moderately
> directional gain antenna will help. Putting the antenna in a window
> will be a huge help (to avoid going through at least one wall).
>
> However, there's no way to predict or guarantee that it will work. For
> example, if your workshop is a metal building, it won't work. The
> easiest way is to take what you have, and just try it. If it works,
> an external gain antenna will be a big help. Try different locations
> and positions.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[seaweedsteve]

On Feb 26, 11:42 am, "William Andersen" <wgan...@cox.net> wrote:
> Thanks.
> The home is in a smalll community on a 1/4 acre lot. The utility pole for
> electric and cable service is next to the shop and the lines to the house
> run almost parallel to the sidewalk between shop and house. I don't know if
> they will provide any interference to the signal.
> Both shop and house are wooden construction. The shop was built in the early
> '40s and has interior walls of celotex for insulation; the house was built
> in 1898 and I don't think the walls are insulated. My wife grw up in the
> house and remembers her Dad building the shop. She remembers him finishing
> parts of the house, but not insulating it. A neighbor's home had old
> newspapers between interior and exterior wooden walls. The home had siding
> of a rubbery shingle style (I don't remember what it was called) which has
> beencovered with vinyl siding. The shop had that sasme shingle siding but
> has been covered with T-111 wooden siding. The shop has an attic space, too,
> so if I go to an external antenna, I have a good place for it.


I believe that you will find that you can place your router in a
window in the attic or upstairs, put a reflector on it and get a
signal in your shop. You may have to work in front of a window at
the shop too, but you may not. 100 feet is not far.

You can make a reflector at home and play with it before you go.

http://www.freeantennas.com/projects/template2/index.html

http://users.picknowl.com.au/~gloaming_agnet/ant2.html


Steve

[William Andersen]

Thanks for the links.
"seaweedsteve" <seaweedsteve@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2aeddef6-bbf3-4a8d-a5bc-0948e3a7b5f2@k2g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 26, 11:42 am, "William Andersen" <wgan...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Thanks.
>> The home is in a smalll community on a 1/4 acre lot. The utility pole for
>> electric and cable service is next to the shop and the lines to the house
>> run almost parallel to the sidewalk between shop and house. I don't know
>> if
>> they will provide any interference to the signal.
>> Both shop and house are wooden construction. The shop was built in the
>> early
>> '40s and has interior walls of celotex for insulation; the house was
>> built
>> in 1898 and I don't think the walls are insulated. My wife grw up in the
>> house and remembers her Dad building the shop. She remembers him
>> finishing
>> parts of the house, but not insulating it. A neighbor's home had old
>> newspapers between interior and exterior wooden walls. The home had
>> siding
>> of a rubbery shingle style (I don't remember what it was called) which
>> has
>> beencovered with vinyl siding. The shop had that sasme shingle siding but
>> has been covered with T-111 wooden siding. The shop has an attic space,
>> too,
>> so if I go to an external antenna, I have a good place for it.
>
>
> I believe that you will find that you can place your router in a
> window in the attic or upstairs, put a reflector on it and get a
> signal in your shop. You may have to work in front of a window at
> the shop too, but you may not. 100 feet is not far.
>
> You can make a reflector at home and play with it before you go.
>
> http://www.freeantennas.com/projects/template2/index.html
>
> http://users.picknowl.com.au/~gloaming_agnet/ant2.html
>
>
> Steve
>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:42:24 -0800, "William Andersen"
<wgander@cox.net> wrote:

>The home is in a smalll community on a 1/4 acre lot.

That's 100ft by 100ft lot. Unless the shop and house are on opposite
corners, the require range will be less than 100ft. Better numbers
please?

>The utility pole for
>electric and cable service is next to the shop and the lines to the house
>run almost parallel to the sidewalk between shop and house. I don't know if
>they will provide any interference to the signal.

Utility power does NOT generate any interference to cable, DSL,
satellite, or wireless.

>Both shop and house are wooden construction. The shop was built in the early
>'40s and has interior walls of celotex for insulation; the house was built
>in 1898 and I don't think the walls are insulated.

Does this community have a building code? Just curious.

Sounds ideal for wireless. Unless there's some metal in the walls
(chicken wire, foil back insulation, etc) the single walls should be
almost transparent to 2.4GHz.

>My wife grw up in the
>house and remembers her Dad building the shop. She remembers him finishing
>parts of the house, but not insulating it. A neighbor's home had old
>newspapers between interior and exterior wooden walls.

A good name for the shop would be "the fire trap". I lived in a WWII
era house that used "vegetable board" instead of drywall. The vegies
were made from dried and pressed agricultural waste. It worked well
until I knocked a small hole in the wall above the kitchen stove. The
steam from the tea pot caused the seeds in the wall to sprout. I had
various difficult to identify plants growing out of the walls.

Anyways, newspaper is transparent to RF.

>The home had siding
>of a rubbery shingle style (I don't remember what it was called) which has
>beencovered with vinyl siding.

You got me there. If the rubber was strengthened with carbon or
graphite, there may be a problem. It's probably ok.

>The shop had that sasme shingle siding but
>has been covered with T-111 wooden siding.

That's fairly thin and should not add much attenuation. I think
you're ok for going through the walls.

>The shop has an attic space, too,
>so if I go to an external antenna, I have a good place for it.

Does it have glass windows? You may not need to install an external
antenna on the shop.

However, methinks you might want to explore some alternatives to
wireless.

1. For 100ft, you can just run CAT5 between the buildings. Direct
buriable rubberized and filled with silicon gel goo is commonly
available. I just bought 1000ft for $200 plus shipping. Optical
fiber is also an option if lightning is a potential problem.

2. If the two buildings share a common power line, you can use the
power lines for internet.
<http://www.homeplug.org>
See various power line networking products from Netgear.

3. You can also use the phone lines:
<http://www.homepna.org>

4. If you have CATV coax between buildings, there are ways to also
share the cable.

5. If you have a barbed wire fence, you can run DSL over barbed wire.


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

[William Andersen]

Thanks for the information.
The deed says 1/4 acre; the only measurement I've taken was by measuring the
sidewalk between the two buildings: 90'. The lot isn't square.
If they have a building code, it isn't enforced for any existing structures.
When I checked with the borough about pouring a 20' x 40' pad to park my
motor home in the backyard they didn't know why I asked - they told me it
was my lot, do what I want. Both structures have be re-roofed, the house has
been rewired. I hope to rewire the shop this year, including electrical
service. It is fed underground from the main panel in the basement of the
house. I hope I can just pull new wire through on the end of the old, but
may have to dig a new trench. I'll consider running cable for TV and
Internet access when I do.
I think I asked about separate electrical service for the shop and was
discouraged. I think the electric company didn't want to be bothered because
the consumption for a few months of the year would be so little, and the
electrician wasn't aware of any situation like mine having separate power
for a shop, garage or barn.
I've removed the pot belly, wood/coal stove that was used for heat and
blacksmithing in the past, and chimney, and have a small kerosene heater
available. We don't plan on spending winters there.
There is a window in each attic.
There's no phone wire in the shop; I use a wireless extension from the house
phone, or my cell phone.
There's no fence on the property.

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in message
news:5939s3d9i7jrc4trcq3btplrp274rv352c@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:42:24 -0800, "William Andersen"
> <wgander@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>The home is in a smalll community on a 1/4 acre lot.
>
> That's 100ft by 100ft lot. Unless the shop and house are on opposite
> corners, the require range will be less than 100ft. Better numbers
> please?
>
>>The utility pole for
>>electric and cable service is next to the shop and the lines to the house
>>run almost parallel to the sidewalk between shop and house. I don't know
>>if
>>they will provide any interference to the signal.
>
> Utility power does NOT generate any interference to cable, DSL,
> satellite, or wireless.
>
>>Both shop and house are wooden construction. The shop was built in the
>>early
>>'40s and has interior walls of celotex for insulation; the house was built
>>in 1898 and I don't think the walls are insulated.
>
> Does this community have a building code? Just curious.
>
> Sounds ideal for wireless. Unless there's some metal in the walls
> (chicken wire, foil back insulation, etc) the single walls should be
> almost transparent to 2.4GHz.
>
>>My wife grw up in the
>>house and remembers her Dad building the shop. She remembers him finishing
>>parts of the house, but not insulating it. A neighbor's home had old
>>newspapers between interior and exterior wooden walls.
>
> A good name for the shop would be "the fire trap". I lived in a WWII
> era house that used "vegetable board" instead of drywall. The vegies
> were made from dried and pressed agricultural waste. It worked well
> until I knocked a small hole in the wall above the kitchen stove. The
> steam from the tea pot caused the seeds in the wall to sprout. I had
> various difficult to identify plants growing out of the walls.
>
> Anyways, newspaper is transparent to RF.
>
>>The home had siding
>>of a rubbery shingle style (I don't remember what it was called) which has
>>beencovered with vinyl siding.
>
> You got me there. If the rubber was strengthened with carbon or
> graphite, there may be a problem. It's probably ok.
>
>>The shop had that sasme shingle siding but
>>has been covered with T-111 wooden siding.
>
> That's fairly thin and should not add much attenuation. I think
> you're ok for going through the walls.
>
>>The shop has an attic space, too,
>>so if I go to an external antenna, I have a good place for it.
>
> Does it have glass windows? You may not need to install an external
> antenna on the shop.
>
> However, methinks you might want to explore some alternatives to
> wireless.
>
> 1. For 100ft, you can just run CAT5 between the buildings. Direct
> buriable rubberized and filled with silicon gel goo is commonly
> available. I just bought 1000ft for $200 plus shipping. Optical
> fiber is also an option if lightning is a potential problem.
>
> 2. If the two buildings share a common power line, you can use the
> power lines for internet.
> <http://www.homeplug.org>
> See various power line networking products from Netgear.
>
> 3. You can also use the phone lines:
> <http://www.homepna.org>
>
> 4. If you have CATV coax between buildings, there are ways to also
> share the cable.
>
> 5. If you have a barbed wire fence, you can run DSL over barbed wire.
>
>
> --
> # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
> # 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
> # http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
> # http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS