Expanding Church LAN

[dsl-jds]

Background: Verizon DSL connected to 8 port switch with 5 PCs and a LAN enabled copier/printer. This is all in a building separate from the church.

Now we are thinking of getting ethernet to the church itself. There is a 6 pair phone cable between buildings with 3 pair being used for phones. My thinking is to see if using 2 pair for ethernet might work. I know it isn't cat5 and speed isn't all that important. Did I mention the the distance is 200+'?

So I'm asking the experts here, if they think that I would even get a signal with this arrangement? And if it does, what kind of problems might I expect? If it isn't satisfactory, then we'll run cat5e or cat6.

I probably won't get to trying this until after the holidays. I'll report my results here when I do.

Thanks in advance for your insight.

And, Happy Holidays!

[twwabw]

Likely no chance what so ever it would work.
- little to no "twisting" in the pairs to prevent cross talk
- too much interference from phone traffic
- EMI in the line caused by high-voltage phone traffic. 50v DC at ring! (unless using a pBX)

Phone cable is much different than Cat5 UTP. You really shouldn't even try this IMO.

[YeOldeStonecat]

It depends on what you need to run across this link....we've done many setups with buildings close to each other...using leftover existing phone lines for a 10 meg connection with no problem. However at that distance......I've only had them done with buildings well under a hundred feet from each other....small "campus area networks".

For over 200 feet...you can use phone lines and make your version of a private DSL line..blackbox makes some bridges for this. But you're just going to have 1-2 meg speeds...fine if you're running Terminal Services or sharing an internet connection.....but for running applications across a network... :nope:

[dsl-jds]

Thanks for the replies. All we plan to do is share the church DSL connection to maybe a couple of PCs in the Youth Room. The church phone system is a Panasonic phone system, so I believe the EMI should be lower than a straight phone company connection. There is also very little phone traffic on this cable. I thought it might be worth a shot.

Now if we end up needing to run Cat5 or 6, what is needed for running this outside overhead? We can use the existing phone cable for support.

[dsl-jds]

Okay, I'm bumping my own thread in preparation of reporting about this experiment. I'll be giving it a try tomorrow. I'll report afterwards.

[dsl-jds]

The experiment went very well. After connecting the spare pairs on the telephone cable, I was able to get a 100 Mbps connection at the church. The speed test results were the same as if I did it from the main building. Now to figure out how to run internal cat5/6 or possibly use wireless in the church.

[twwabw]

Great you got it to work- I wouldn't have done it, but you can't argue with success! Have you tested its throughput yet? A 100mbps link light doesn't necessarily mean it will handle that connection at full speed without packet loss. Better test to be sure.

[YeOldeStonecat]

The experiment went very well. After connecting the spare pairs on the telephone cable, I was able to get a 100 Mbps connection at the church. The speed test results were the same as if I did it from the main building. Now to figure out how to run internal cat5/6 or possibly use wireless in the church.

Lock it at 10 megs...don't want to push for 100 and end up with frequent errors. It may "appear" to run at 100..and the PC's may start to surf the net while connected across the LAN..but I bet you'll find things act up. Downloads get corrupted, frequent stalls, etc.

[dsl-jds]

I'll be checking these things once we get PCs connected there. But, the preliminary speedtest shows 1500Mbps down and 350Kbps up. Granted that is a short term test, but is encouraging that it can work even if we have drop back to 10 Mbps. We still need to run cat5 to where it will be used. This might be a couple of months before we have things set.

[dsl-jds]

Here's the latest. As a write this, I'm streaming some video (Windows Media Player) on my notebook while sitting in the dining hall in the church. There have been no dropout or packet loss. Even when I downloaded a large (61MB) mp3 file. The local connection status reports 100Mbps. The connection between buildings is over 200' and I have an additional 100' of cat5e inside.

So what have I done wrong. :)

[dsl-jds]

Anyone have any other thoughts for me? Like what to watch out for?

[YeOldeStonecat]

Anyone have any other thoughts for me? Like what to watch out for?

Did it break?

I'd encourage you to drop the connections to 10 megs...but if you're only doing internet access...it's not that big a deal. Streaming video doesn't push a connection or test it...don't forget it can spool up..it's designed for internet..so it'll play over a meg..heck..even dial up.

NICs auto negotiation isn't a good test...you could probably get a pair of NICs to fake out using a pair of twisted paperclips. It's holding data integrity over time, and varying conditions, that counts. For basic internet stuff..again, internet traffic is "loose"..it's designed for poor conditions. But when you get to applications that run across a local network...like accounting applications..that's where you need to be careful. I wouldn't want to risk running an accounting application over a connection that is error prone.

[dsl-jds]

Thanks for that insight. This connection won't be used for anything but internet and maybe some email. Heck, we don't even run any applications on LAN now. :)

[picohat]

It's impressive, never thought it can work that well..

Maybe you can try to do some Internet connection speed test from the church, see how's the actual throughput.
http://www.dslreports.com/stest

:)
picoHat

[dsl-jds]

Thanks for that link, I'll give it a try. I'm still in the process of stringing the cat5e inside.

[dsl-jds]

I haven't forgotten this thread, just been slow. I'll be installing lightning protection on the line this week and completing the inside wiring. I also had to get another ethernet switch to feed the church. Had an 8 port one in the one building with all ports used. Swapped it for a 16 port and will use the 8 port in the church. Then I'll do some more extensive testing.

[dsl-jds]

This phase was to add protection to the line between buildings and to run the Cat5e to the room inside the church where it most likely will be used. This required running the line above a drop ceiling and fishing it through a wall. Since this church is 100+ years old you can imagine how dirty this job was.:)

Anyway, after completion, I connected my notebook to the LAN and did a few speedtests (DSLReports). The results were ~1500kbps down and ~360kbps up, which is what I get at the office in the other building. I also streamed some audio from the church website and there were no dropouts, the download went smoothly. Since there will be no serving of programs, etc, from the other building, only internet access, I don't see any immediate problems.

The next phase is to install an ethernet switch and a few more outlets.

BTW, although I haven't actually measured the distance of this line, I estimate it to be 300+ feet.

[dsl-jds]

I connected the 8 port switch today and there were no problems. Now, to permanently move a computer or two to the church. I may also install my extra wireless AP (802.11b) to test reception.

[dsl-jds]

I have replaced several staff PCs and now have the old ones to use in the church for the youth. I'll be upgrading the RAM and reinstalling WinXP on these.

These will only be used for internet access and for printing to the LAN connected printers.

Slightly off topic: Can anyone suggest free safe browsing software for these youth PCs? I'll be installing Firefox as the preferred browser. No email on these PCs.

[loop2kil]

I have replaced several staff PCs and now have the old ones to use in the church for the youth. I'll be upgrading the RAM and reinstalling WinXP on these.

These will only be used for internet access and for printing to the LAN connected printers.

Slightly off topic: Can anyone suggest free safe browsing software for these youth PCs? I'll be installing Firefox as the preferred browser. No email on these PCs.

If you have access to an older computer like 600-1000 mhz you can try making a linux based router and put IPcop and URLfilter on it. URLfilter has total control over the content that can pass through a network. You can even put up a custom page that lets them know they tried going somewhere they shouldn't have. You will need at least 2 network cards in the PC that you want to make into a router and i recommend at least 512 mb ram.

There is also another addon for the ipcop, called copfilter where you can have antivirus running on the router so everything gets scanned before coming into the network. However, you will need a more substantial PC to run copfilter on as it needs speed to work well.

http://www.ipcop.org/
http://www.urlfilter.net/

If you need any help setting this up, let me know...I've done mine a few times and i think i could do it in my sleep by now.

[dsl-jds]

Thanks for the info. I'll check out the links. But, I'm not sure if I want to administer a Linux box. :)

[YeOldeStonecat]

Was going to suggest this myself...many linux distro routers have great filtering options. IPCop is widely popular, has many open source add-ons.

You don't need to know linux to build and manage one. You download the ISO image..burn to CD...get a mid-range computer (P3 or so) with 256 or 512 megs of RAM...that has 2x standard network card, boot from the CD..and it holds your hand through an easy setup/install wizard.

From that point on...you manage it via a web browser just like any other home grade router.

[loop2kil]

Thanks for the info. I'll check out the links. But, I'm not sure if I want to administer a Linux box. :)

yeah like cat said...once you get through the very simple setup of ipcop it's no more difficult to manage than any other web based routers gui. you can even set it up so that you can manage it from home :)

[YeOldeStonecat]

While you're at it..Google and check out my current favorite distro...Endian
and what I think is the new up and coming star...heavy development and support..and awesome features...Untangle. I'm going to rebuild my *nix router with this in a week or so...

http://www.untangle.com/

[loop2kil]

While you're at it..Google and check out my current favorite distro...Endian
and what I think is the new up and coming star...heavy development and support..and awesome features...Untangle. I'm going to rebuild my *nix router with this in a week or so...

http://www.untangle.com/


wow, that untangle looks fantastic...I think I'm gonna give it a try.

[dsl-jds]

Sorry I haven't checked in lately.:) I've been busy configuring new PCs for the staff and reloading WinXP on the old machines for use by the youth.

So far I have two machines located in the church connected to an 8 port switch located there. I ran several speedtests (using speedtest.net) and got 1.5Mbps down and 370Kbps up. These speeds are the same as when run on the office machines. :)

It's still amazing that I got ethernet working over the two extra pairs in the telephone cable connecting the two buildings.

[rumba]

I was looking all over your posts dsl-jds and did not found any where you have made a test of the throughput. I bet that you have a lot of errors in this connection when using 100FD link. For this cable, and cable length I suggest you like the moderator, to use 10HD mode link.

[dsl-jds]

We haven't got into using it yet. But, like I mentioned, it will only be used for internet usage and for getting lesson plans from the CE's office PC. Obviously, if many errors start showing up, I'll throttle it back to 10Kb.

Thanks for the input.

[dsl-jds]

Time for another update.

I've completed the update of the two PCs. There doesn't seem to be any problems with throughput, but as i said earlier these aren't going to be used heavily. Just access to the Director of Christian Education's PC in her office and for internet access. I've performed speed tests using various test sites to several different servers across the country. The tests reported on average about 1500 kbps down and 360 kbps up, which are right on target with our Verizon DSL specs.

A question to you experts. What are some good tests to perform that may show up connection errors?

[YeOldeStonecat]

A question to you experts. What are some good tests to perform that may show up connection errors?

Ixia QCheck

[dsl-jds]

Thanks YOS.

I'll look into that.

[dsl-jds]

It's been over a year and all is working well, except that the PCs aren't being utilized very much.